First Female-Driven IGF-1 Research

[scorpiochiq]

Ok, Let's set the stage here. The product is IGF-1 Long, from Cyber Solutions, and is being stored in the freezer. I plan on doing 40-50mcg a day in the morning. I am continuing on a high protein, mod fat (EFA's), low (not zero) carb diet because typically this works best for me. My goal: hmmm, a bit complicated. Aesthetically I am using it for cutting - decrease body fat, gain a bit of muscle mass. However it's more than just that. I own my own biz and went through a really intense year of high stress = 18 hr days, 1.5 hrs training a day, and as you can imagine, about 4 hours sleep. At the end of that period my body crashed... my adrenals were BURNT, which affected my endocrine system, energy, metabolism and then some. It's been about 5-6 months yet ,my body is still in repair. I wanted to take the IGF because I knew it would also speed up this process (since it is derived from GH). So in essence, my main goal is BF loss, but I am looking forward to other benefits.

Stats: 5'3, Mesomorph. 26 yrs old.
Normally between 112 and 115 at 14% BF, but have gone up to 125/126 and ? BF over the past few months. I have never taken any AAS and am currently taking IGF alone. I now train 5 days a week (2 days on 1 day off), about 45 min weight with Praetorian and 30 min cardio. I started walking in the morning for 20 min as soon as I wake up B4 breakfast. I think that's about all the variables we need to consider...

Ok, now to the good stuff :D

I started yesterday. Day 1) Didn't feel a thing except perhaps a bit tired - hard to tell because I didn't get much sleep the night before.

Day 2) Today. Still, no fatigue, no hunger pangs. In fact, I found it to be a bit of an appetite suppressant if you can believe that.
Went to the gym to do Quads and Calves and I felt a pump like you wouldn't believe. IT was great. I injured my back a few weeks ago so I have been going easy with the weights, but this time I had the strength to squat 95 lbs (which was the weight I was pushing prior to the injury).
Now... for me to get such a pump I imagine that blood is pumping through my veins and a faster rate right? With regard to that, when I was working out, I also felt that my heart was pumping HARDER if that makes sense. Definite side effect of IGF. I take a deep breath before I push a weight and hold that breath almost throughout the movement in order to stabilize my body and use all my strength so I definately felt the blood pumping through - my heart almost felt 'strained'. Anyone else get that feeling on this? Women in general are more prone to heart palpitations so it may not be a side effect that you guys would notice.

My prediction? I think IGF will react very different with women. I think it's something that works synergistically with anabolics and those doing it alone are at an advantage, however I do presume that I will be able to gain some muscle on this. As for fat loss, minimal. But that's my hypothesis. Comments?

[shiko24]

can't wait to see the results I have a female lab rat that I think might benifit from this

[scorpiochiq]

oops, I meant those doing it alone are at a 'DISadvantage'. Also, one more thing, perhaps it is the dosage, but it makes me a bit light headed and 'cloudy'. I can't concentrate as well.

Definite mood enhancement too....... of course, it always puts you in a better mood when you feel you are 'doing something' to make a change in your life, body, health.. etc

[shiko24]

how far into the IGF run is your test >?

[scorpiochiq]

Today is the second day. I will run it straight for as long as I can (about 21-25 days)

[shiko24]

thats cool I really would like to know how this goes for you !

best of luck !

[scorpiochiq]

Thanks :-) If it inspires me to take some pics I'll post them

;-)

[shiko24]

if you can take some b4 pics as well just to see the diffrence !

[Choke03]

I have also felt a bit of a lightheaded type feeling when I started out. This went away after a week. Hunger took about 3 day's to notice and tired was almost immediate from what I remember.
The pumps are incredible huh, in a little over a week you should begin to notice fat loss and a change in your muscle structure. Please keep us updated !!

[scorpiochiq]

Sweet! I hope so. Choke03 - were u using any anabolics, or did it by itself. I think it reacts the same, but is just intensified (a lot) w/AAS. The pumps themselves makes things worthwhile. I still feel pumped even hours after my workout.

[scorpio]

Very interesting post. I can tell you are well versed and well read. It took me about day 4 or 5 post workout, then I noticed a huge increase in hunger. The pumps came early for me, however I was in the tail end of a bulker. Toward the 2nd week, my forearms hurt all the time. Like I just did curls. Biceps always felt full. Very odd sensation. Mood enhancement is a great sign, I also got lethargic. Keep up the journal, glad you are here!!

[scorpiochiq]

Thanks. I did at least 8 weeks of intense research before starting this.
Some thoughts on women and IGF:
1) as for the 'cancer-connection' I'm putting it in perspective, and I think others should too. Also, there is no history of breast cancer (whew!) or such in my family history. I think this is a big scare for many women thinking of IGF.
2) I don't think there is really such a thing as a non-responder, I think there are just different levels of response.
3) For those wondering how I came up with this dosage (50 mcg), which is basically what most men are doing, I considered the following chart. I think I originally found it on this site. Women have the same, if not more at some points, of IGF-1 levels circulating in their blood than men, so essentially I think it is fruitless for a woman to do 10-20 mcg. My 2 cents.

TABLE 1: IGF-1 concentrations by age
AGE (M)ALE (F)EMALE

2 months-5 years
(M)17-248 ng/ml (F)17-248 ng/ml

6-8 years
(M) 88-474 ng/ml (F)88-474 ng/ml

9-11 years
(M)110-565 ng/ml (F)117-771 ng/ml

12-15 years
(M)202-957 ng/ml (F)261-1096 ng/ml

16-24
(M)182-780 ng/ml (F)182-780 ng/ml

25-39
(M)114-492 ng/ml (F)114-492 ng/ml

40-54
(M)90-360 ng/ml (F)90-360 ng/ml

55 years and older
(M)71-290 ng/ml (F)71-290 ng/ml

[Choke03]

I was on at the time, but I could easily notice the positive effects it had on me, it was like nothing I had ever fealt before. Unfortunately I had a pretty serious injury which made me cut my research short but I can not wait to recover and start up again.

You are a great addition to MC, very happy you are taking the time and sharing your experience with us and I hope you stick around

[MaxRep]

"Women have the same, if not more at some points, of IGF-1 levels circulating in their blood than men, so essentially I think it is fruitless for a woman to do 10-20 mcg. My 2 cents. "

Actually, this would be incorrect.

Your chart is not applicable to this situation as it only compares ng/ml between men and women.

You seem like an intelligent person so I will let you figure it out for yourself but here's a hint. 8%

And therefore, whatever results or effects you notice at 50mcg's/day, would require roughly 100mcg's/day for a good sized male BB to notice. The males here reporting various benefits at 50mcg/day could be achieved by you at 25mcg/day.

Please don't take this in a negative way as I too am very happy to see a woman here utilizing IGF and reporting its effects.

Best regards,

MaxRep

[scorpiochiq]

No offense taken. Granted there are weight differences here. It's all relative though. I will probrably stick with about 40 mcg the whole way through. If my body was in perfect health (as per my original post) I might do 25 mcg, but I think your general state of health and how things are functioning affect the result of IGF - so that's why I am taking a 'higher' dose. In terms of other non-responders, one variable to take into consideration is whether are not their body had reached homeostatis or whether they were coming off a cycle, etc etc. AKA timing. Nothing scientific to found this theory, just a feeling.

Day 3) Didn't have as much strength today, but my Quads were still wiped from yesterday's workout. Did Hams and Shoulders today at the gym with a pump in my hams but not really my shoulders. Go figure. Took a nap that knocked me out in the afternoon and am feeling really nauseas right now. Otherwise no other changes. Appetite is still relatively dulled.

[PRAETORIAN]

Day 4 - mid day) First I have to say that it is official, this works as an appetite suppressant. I am literally forcing myself to intake more than a couple protein shakes throughout the day. Yesterday night my Quads were so hard and you could feel the seperation, this stuff is amazing. As for today, it's 1pm, mood is still really good, I had just a shake so far and am not hungry at all, but will try and eat some chicken. Might be a tad leaner, but it is hard to say. More like.... I FEEL leaner because I FEEL harder. BTW, this stuff is giving me quite a bit of energy. I was feeling really lethargic because of the weather and time change before but now I feel great.

[MaxRep]

I don't want to seem overly critical but so far, everything you're reporting is very subjective, and when this is all over, will not end up being very useful.

As I read through your feelings for your first 4 days, what first comes to mind is that what you're reporting could have any one of numerous causes. To say all these things are the direct result of the IGF, is possible but unlikely. Things like mood changes, as I think you already suggested, would not be directly due to the IGF.

A friendly suggestion is to try and set this up in a more objective manner, so that at the end, there will be hard facts instead of just feelings.

Example

1. beginning weight and weight measurements on a weekly basis.
2. beginning BF% and ending BF%
3. bench, squat, curl, etc., beginning poundages for x reps and ending poundages for same x reps.
4. measure caloric intake and protein/carb/fat breakdown on a daily basis.

This is just a quick example of objective measures and you may choose to do others. The point is, without objective measurements, will you really know if the IGF was worth it or what its effects are, when the cycle is over? Or will you just have a general feeling with nothing to back it up?

This may all seem onerous but is really much easier to do and takes much less time than it seems. And, when your cycle is over, you'll have hard facts from which to develop an intelligent opinion.

Best regards,
MaxRep

[squatter]

I am monitering two close personal friends, both female, who are starting IGF-1 at 20mcg daily. both are ahrd core lifters who have used anavar and primo on two occasions each. I will keep all informed of their progress.

squatter

[radical_P]

up top

[PRAETORIAN]

Originally posted by MaxRep
I don't want to seem overly critical but so far, everything you're reporting is very subjective, and when this is all over, will not end up being very useful.

As I read through your feelings for your first 4 days, what first comes to mind is that what you're reporting could have any one of numerous causes. To say all these things are the direct result of the IGF, is possible but unlikely. Things like mood changes, as I think you already suggested, would not be directly due to the IGF.

A friendly suggestion is to try and set this up in a more objective manner, so that at the end, there will be hard facts instead of just feelings.

Example

1. beginning weight and weight measurements on a weekly basis.
2. beginning BF% and ending BF%
3. bench, squat, curl, etc., beginning poundages for x reps and ending poundages for same x reps.
4. measure caloric intake and protein/carb/fat breakdown on a daily basis.

This is just a quick example of objective measures and you may choose to do others. The point is, without objective measurements, will you really know if the IGF was worth it or what its effects are, when the cycle is over? Or will you just have a general feeling with nothing to back it up?

This may all seem onerous but is really much easier to do and takes much less time than it seems. And, when your cycle is over, you'll have hard facts from which to develop an intelligent opinion.

Best regards,
MaxRep

Some good points are made, as to the scientific efficacy of the experiment this it true. I think subjective effects may be a result of many things but the "entire" scope of using IGF-1 is a result of unmistakable evidence gained thru subjective observation. As well the accuracy of these measurements must also be taken into consideration as they can "lead" the experiment. I agree with true scientific experiments using placebo and control groups to support any changes seen or measured. But if this is necessary to record changes when using IGF-1 then it is a complete waste of time and money to be using the product. I believe most members on this board and others are looking for substantial changes in LBM and body comp..not subtle changes requiring exact measurement. These measuremant will no doubt give a true representation of the experiment but most people could care less what the scale says or what a fat caliper says...what most people want is to "see" dramatic changes. These changes are what has driven us to experiement ourselves. If someone said they measured a % changes in bf and gained lbs of muscle but couldnt see much difference in the mirror we wouldnt be discussing this at this point in time.
Dont get me wrong..scientifc measurement holds more water...but dramatic results speak louder and it is these results that have stemmed most experiemnts with IGF-1.

Peace,
P

[squatter]

bingo! you hit the nail on the head. when I say monitering, I mean pure visual observation. I keep all my trainees off of the scale, and when I measure BF I don't tell them what it is. their only cue is the mirror. why? the mirror NEVER lies. for most men and all women, especially non-competing women, what you look like is all that matters.

squatter

[BGMKE7]

just would like to add that i experience the extreme hungry about 4 hours after the injection.its doesnt last all day and night.it just hits me hard at the 4 hour mark.i even went a little hypo from not eating fast enough.i also have noticed that i can eat what ever i want and im getting better results by doing so.i tryed to keep my diet clean and sometimes i got a little nauseas too.but now i have just said what the hell and started eating whatever is there in front of me and im not putting on any fat.i really didnt want to test this so called theory but i was forced to cause i hate being nauseas.just my 2 cents.
later

[WWM/PUMPED]

Originally posted by BGMKE7
just would like to add that i experience the extreme hungry about 4 hours after the injection.its doesnt last all day and night.it just hits me hard at the 4 hour mark.i even went a little hypo from not eating fast enough.i also have noticed that i can eat what ever i want and im getting better results by doing so.i tryed to keep my diet clean and sometimes i got a little nauseas too.but now i have just said what the hell and started eating whatever is there in front of me and im not putting on any fat.i really didnt want to test this so called theory but i was forced to cause i hate being nauseas.just my 2 cents.
later


I am having the same things happen to me. well not the hypo but I feel and look better if I eat what every I want. I tryed to eat VERY clean today and by 2PM my head was pounding like crazy and felt sick as shit.

[scorpiochiq]

Originally posted by squatter
bingo! you hit the nail on the head. when I say monitering, I mean pure visual observation. I keep all my trainees off of the scale, and when I measure BF I don't tell them what it is. their only cue is the mirror. why? the mirror NEVER lies. for most men and all women, especially non-competing women, what you look like is all that matters.

squatter

Yep, also, men and women are very different. In a given month a woman's hormones alter, rise, fall and then some - not to mention I know I can gain 5 pounds of excess water retention during PMS so there is no sense in using the scale or the fat caliper. Oh, and as per Max Rep's comments, I agree that it's important to get accurate measurements but at the moment I don't have a reliable scale or calipers. However I will take note of my strength improvements in the gym.

Day 5)Didn't get to the gym for my clean-up day because I was exhausted from the weekend. I also had my cheat day today (in fact, I started last night at dinner) so the last thing I am at this moment is 'lean'. Holding a lot of water but I am really excited to get back at the gym this week and see what this puppy can do now that I am almost finished my period (yes, too much info there perhaps but it is relevant when considering the water I was holding) and that the igf has been in my system for few days.

[squatter]

true true! my girl swells during PMS. her breasts are falling out of her bra and some times her top lip even swells up. and sure as shit a week later back to normal.

she and I are on day 3 and nothing worth noting. I had a killer headache yeasterday for the whole 2nd half of the day. maybe coincidence.

squatter

[scorpiochiq]

Originally posted by LA
I was going to say you can tell she has a high IQ, but I like the way you put it!

Thanks for the compliment!

Day 6) Great mood, and a fantastic workout at the gym today. I didn't to have a shake this morning when I got up so when I went to the gym I was really working on empty - a true test for the IGF.
My strength was really impressive. I did a Back workout today and even though I was pushing till failure I still had energy to move on to the next exercise. Even though I am typically stronger and more energetic the day after my carb-up, it doesn't hold a candle to the energy I had in the gym today (on empty at that!).

Major observations include: localized growth in my delts where I have been injected the IGF (now at 50 mcg and staying there). STrength gains. Not really a pump in my upper body but when I stepped on the Gauntlet (climbing stairmaster) I had a serious pump in my quads. I was also able to get through some pretty intense cardio quite easily. I 'felt' like I was burning more calories than normal even though I only did 20 min on that machine - perhaps because of the burn. The energy was endless.
My muscles appear larger but not necessarily more defined. I will wait until Wed/Thurs for my water to shed a bit more and really form an opinion.

L.A.: as for the low carb diet I am switching this week to more of a Jay Robb Diet, which is only low glycemic carbs like fruits. This type of diet really works for me.


Oh yeah, I added one more variable today (which I took after today's workout but will take in the morning with IGF from here on in): Injectable B12 w/ folic acid. The B12 is actually a combination of 3 different forms of B12 including methylcobalamin which among many things protects against cancer, chronic fatigue syndrome and neurological diseases. I got it from my doctor and inject 1 ml (which is 5 mg/ml of the formula) daily. Essentially it's a kick *ss vitamin mix.

[scorpiochiq]

Originally posted by squatter
she and I are on day 3 and nothing worth noting. I had a killer headache yeasterday for the whole 2nd half of the day. maybe coincidence.

squatter

Where did you get the IGF from? Reputable source? I'll tell you why: I tried IGF before but I got it from a crap source that didn't send it in ice and shipped it USPS so it took 2 weeks to get here. Needless to say, it arrived and I felt nothing. However I think the headache is a good sign that it is doing something because I have been getting them as well. Remedy? 1) Food and 2) split up your dose into two, especially if it's more than 50 mcg. Just my opinion.

[scorpiochiq]

A few observations based on the fact that I am NOT doing IGF in conjunction with an AAS or other: simply put, you have to work your ass off. I 'feel' and 'see' a difference when I put the pedal to the metal but when I am lounging all day or eating poorly, very little happens. I think IGF (alone) is far from the easy way out. Much like taking Cytomel you have to train and diet hard while on it in order for it to work. I know that sounds almost obvious, but I do think there is a definate disadvantage to doing the IGF solo IN COMPARISON to injecting a synergistic cocktail of anabolics with the IGF.

That being said, I am working my butt off. I am still looking for a complete change in my body composition and physique so for those wondering 'how can I tell whether it is hard work or the IGF that is working'? I can promise you that the effects of the IGF (from the pump and burn to the 'twice the calories in half the time feeling') is hard to ignore).


Now, an interesting Q is, if one took GH for 6 months doing just an average amount of activity with an average diet, with their body composition/physique still change? Are the effects of GH more dependable than IGF?

[squatter]

we got ours from cyb sol

I think it's good, it's just that I'm pretty well developed (6'5" 300 @8%), change would have to be very drastic to notice this soon. I've done alot of AAS and growth for just a year. this is the only thing on the market escept for EPO that I haven't used. I'm very in tune with my body.

had a mild headache today and was sick to my stomach off and on all day. I'de feel like puking then a minute later be fine. eating does help though. I'm eating over 7500-8500 cals a day, so I'm full all day, but even still, the more I eat the better I feel. eati8ng even makes my headache go away come to think of it.

scorpiochic, if you don't mind me asking, what is your age and level of fitness? do you compete? plan to?

squatter

[squatter]

my girl says that she felt pumped in her biceps for an hour after carrying a pair of dumbells across the gym while she was training some one. she also said that she feels like her face is red, but admits that it might be PMS. It's cold here, but she feels like she is let prone to the chills. she still doing 25mcg one morning dose. no headaches or upset stomach.

squatter

[scorpiochiq]

Originally posted by squatter

had a mild headache today and was sick to my stomach off and on all day. I'de feel like puking then a minute later be fine. eating does help though. I'm eating over 7500-8500 cals a day, so I'm full all day, but even still, the more I eat the better I feel. eati8ng even makes my headache go away come to think of it.

scorpiochic, if you don't mind me asking, what is your age and level of fitness? do you compete? plan to?

squatter

I have been having headaches as well, and on Sat I actually puked. I didn't note it in this diary because I wasn't sure if it was because of the IGF or because I took tylenol on an empty stomache.

I also figured out that eating takes the headache away.

Squatter, I am turning 27 in the next couple of weeks. I would say my level of fitness is non-competitive however I train hard 5 days a week with competitive athletes and have a similar training/diet style and mindset (hmmm, aesthetic perfectionist). I don't plan to compete, except against myself. I just want to take my body to the next level, without using anabolics.

IS your girl using igf alone?

[scorpiochiq]

Day 7) One week. I feel like I should have something more noteworthy to write but to tell you the truth I don't - and am fairly disappointed at that. I felt/looked leaner before my cheat day/weekend towards the beginning of this igf cycle than now.

I did chest today. Felt strong. Not too much of a pump though, of course chest is a hard thing to really feel a pump in. To tell you the truth though my workout had a bit of a black cloud over it because I was hoping at the one week mark I would be able to see more of a change and was pissed to see there wasn't much of one.

[MaxRep]

Despite what someone up above said, the mirror does lie because your mind plays tricks on you.

Subjective "feelings" about how you're feeling throughout the day and in the gym don't count for much when trying to determine the value of a product. The only thing that counts is a change in your body equal to your desires. And the only way to determine that is with objective means.

Weight does fluctuate and that's why a once or twice a week weigh in done for an extended period of time works very well.

Anyone who thinks you're going to see dramatic changes within a short time frame is not very experienced with anybody but beginners, who are the only people with whom dramatic changes will occur fairly rapidly.

Your feelings now are exactly why I earlier advocated using objective means of determining the effectiveness of the IGF. If you had something concrete to measure, you would know if there has been a benefit from the IGF. As it is, as I said earlier, you have no idea and now you're trying to make a determination with faulty data.

If you continue as you are, without taking objective measurements, I can guarantee one thing will happen. Your postings will oscillate between "everthing's wonderful" and "this stuff sucks" and everything in between. The good news is therefore, the way you feel today will later be replaced with a conviction that you're looking 10 times better and the IGF is working miracles. The bad news is you will also, at times, feel you definitely look no better than when you started and the IGF is a waste of money. And when this is all over, you will not really know which one is true.

Happy trails,

MaxRep

[scorpiochiq]

I agree. Valid points. Unfortunately I don't have any calipers and my scale is broken. That is why I have been continueing the way I have been - until I replace it.

[BGMKE7]

before igf-1 i eat everything in sight and i get fat.(but big)
during igf-1 i eat everything in sight and i actually lose weight and see more veins.(and look so much better)
i think that says it all.
also im not a beginner and i have seen dramatic changes with adding igf-1 to my training.

[scorpiochiq]

I still need to diet hardcore on IGF

[PRAETORIAN]

Originally posted by MaxRep
Despite what someone up above said, the mirror does lie because your mind plays tricks on you.

Subjective "feelings" about how you're feeling throughout the day and in the gym don't count for much when trying to determine the value of a product. The only thing that counts is a change in your body equal to your desires. And the only way to determine that is with objective means.

Weight does fluctuate and that's why a once or twice a week weigh in done for an extended period of time works very well.

Anyone who thinks you're going to see dramatic changes within a short time frame is not very experienced with anybody but beginners, who are the only people with whom dramatic changes will occur fairly rapidly.

Your feelings now are exactly why I earlier advocated using objective means of determining the effectiveness of the IGF. If you had something concrete to measure, you would know if there has been a benefit from the IGF. As it is, as I said earlier, you have no idea and now you're trying to make a determination with faulty data.

If you continue as you are, without taking objective measurements, I can guarantee one thing will happen. Your postings will oscillate between "everthing's wonderful" and "this stuff sucks" and everything in between. The good news is therefore, the way you feel today will later be replaced with a conviction that you're looking 10 times better and the IGF is working miracles. The bad news is you will also, at times, feel you definitely look no better than when you started and the IGF is a waste of money. And when this is all over, you will not really know which one is true.

Happy trails,

MaxRep
Max, you make some valid points and I am not sure if you were referring to me on the issue of subjectivity..but anyways just a few notes...

As a competitive BB for over 8 years and having trained IFBB athletes I can attest to how the mirror can lie yes...it is always a good idea to get someone else's objective opinion...the scale or calipers dont lie but they can be misinterpreted greatly and also lead the experiment. I think the real reason most athletes are trying IGF is that they are seeking dramatic changes which have been well documented by other users. I am not sure if you have been following the IGF thread originally started here by LA or the original one on Muscle Nexus which started this whole debate, but either way the changes seen were "dramatic" and they were seen in advanced level, well trained competitive BB's. I dont have the handles readily available but i do remember many saying the effects were unlike anything done before ..including GH, slin, aas etc....these BB have been using various ergogens for many years and are not novices by any means....the results were substantial enough that even in advanced level BB's measurement were not required...this is what started the IGF discussion and the responder/non responder issue as well.
I understand where you are coming from and i agree with what you are saying in relation to documentation..my point is though..that the results I and others are looking for go far beyond the scale or tape....others have documented them and this is what we are looking for as well.
Peace,
P

[PRAETORIAN]

Originally posted by BGMKE7
before igf-1 i eat everything in sight and i get fat.(but big)
during igf-1 i eat everything in sight and i actually lose weight and see more veins.(and look so much better)
i think that says it all.
also im not a beginner and i have seen dramatic changes with adding igf-1 to my training.

My point exactly...thanks for chiming in bro..you are one of the BB's I was referring to!
Peace,
P

[squatter]

my girl is taking clen and t-3. she has to make a public apearence and wants to lean out dramatically, fast. not the wisest thing to do IMO, but she is very inteligent and knows more than most.

I've dropped the dose to 50mcg. 100mcg was too much discomfort. headaches and stomach pains are no problem now. hungry all the time. I'm trying to put size on, so I'm eating everything in site. actually, I always eat clean as a life habit, but I'm eating tons. only 4 days in. so no major weight changes thus far.

squatter

[MaxRep]

Praetorian, other than speaking to SC, I was just speaking in general.

However, the following is for you.

"but either way the changes seen were "dramatic" and they were seen in advanced level, well trained competitive BB's."

Don't you see the problem here? You're making an incorrect assumption that everyone makes dramatic gains. Some people make no gains. Some people make minimal gains. Some people make respectable gains. And some people make awesome gains.

SJR who I'm sure you know, who is a national level Heavyweight, used IGF in various formats and I believe in dosages up to 120mcg/day. He reported zero benefit. Not only that, but he also reported on at least 6 other people who he knows who used IGF and all 6, also reported zero benefit. I have seen on other boards, some people love it and some people think it's an expensive joke. Regarding SJR, I saw him at the recent TOC in Culver City and he looked great. Too bad he missed his weight class limit and had to go up against the SuperHeavies.

Anyone using a new product for the first time should use it in as controlled a manner as possible. They should also use objective means of identifying any gains. After all, if they fall into the "make minimal gains" category, the mirror will probably lie one way or the other and their objective measurements are the only way they'll know what gains they made.

SC has apparently made no gains after her first week. Obviously she's one of the ones not making Dramatic gains. How anyone can not see the need in such a case for objective methods of measuring any future gains or lack of gains is beyond my understanding.

Get a tape and tape her measurements. Do it once a week and graph them. Measure her strength with weight at 10 rep max. on 3 basic exercises. Do that once every 2 weeks and graph that. Keep track of her caloric intake.

Maybe she's not eating enough, I don't know. I don't think you two know either. What I do know is that you and she will get to the end of her IGF cycle and only have a vague feeling as to how the IGF worked or didn't work. If someone then asks her how much fat she lost, or how many pounds of muscle she gained, or how much her squat poundage went up for 10 reps, or how many grams of protein she had to eat to see a benefit, or how much she gained on her arms, you'll be saying "I don't know" a lot.

Since you bring up your experience, all I can say is that's great, but you probably still have a lot to learn. Personally, I did my first AAS cycle 24 years ago and won my first contest 15 years ago. And I too still have a lot to learn.

Peace,

MaxRep

[scorpiochiq]

Originally posted by MaxRep

Get a tape and tape her measurements. Do it once a week and graph them. Measure her strength with weight at 10 rep max. on 3 basic exercises. Do that once every 2 weeks and graph that. Keep track of her caloric intake.

Very good idea. That.... I can definately do. As for graphing my strength every 2 weeks, I really only have 2-ish weeks left of the igf. I can do it weekly.

[PRAETORIAN]

Originally posted by MaxRep
Praetorian, other than speaking to SC, I was just speaking in general.

However, the following is for you.

"but either way the changes seen were "dramatic" and they were seen in advanced level, well trained competitive BB's."

Don't you see the problem here? You're making an incorrect assumption that everyone makes dramatic gains. Some people make no gains. Some people make minimal gains. Some people make respectable gains. And some people make awesome gains.

SJR who I'm sure you know, who is a national level Heavyweight, used IGF in various formats and I believe in dosages up to 120mcg/day. He reported zero benefit. Not only that, but he also reported on at least 6 other people who he knows who used IGF and all 6, also reported zero benefit. I have seen on other boards, some people love it and some people think it's an expensive joke. Regarding SJR, I saw him at the recent TOC in Culver City and he looked great. Too bad he missed his weight class limit and had to go up against the SuperHeavies.

Anyone using a new product for the first time should use it in as controlled a manner as possible. They should also use objective means of identifying any gains. After all, if they fall into the "make minimal gains" category, the mirror will probably lie one way or the other and their objective measurements are the only way they'll know what gains they made.

SC has apparently made no gains after her first week. Obviously she's one of the ones not making Dramatic gains. How anyone can not see the need in such a case for objective methods of measuring any future gains or lack of gains is beyond my understanding.

Get a tape and tape her measurements. Do it once a week and graph them. Measure her strength with weight at 10 rep max. on 3 basic exercises. Do that once every 2 weeks and graph that. Keep track of her caloric intake.

Maybe she's not eating enough, I don't know. I don't think you two know either. What I do know is that you and she will get to the end of her IGF cycle and only have a vague feeling as to how the IGF worked or didn't work. If someone then asks her how much fat she lost, or how many pounds of muscle she gained, or how much her squat poundage went up for 10 reps, or how many grams of protein she had to eat to see a benefit, or how much she gained on her arms, you'll be saying "I don't know" a lot.

Since you bring up your experience, all I can say is that's great, but you probably still have a lot to learn. Personally, I did my first AAS cycle 24 years ago and won my first contest 15 years ago. And I too still have a lot to learn.

Peace,

MaxRep

Max, dont get me wrong i agree with what you say in the only true understanding is to record measurements and look for any significant differences. As well like yourself i have been in the game for a long time and still am learning everyday. Yep posted a few times with SJR on CE. SJR looks great and it does appear that he is a non responder or minimal if that..its difficult to say(if not mistaken i think he was using it as a bridge as well). I monitor SC's progress similar to how i monitor other clients and she is on a calorie deficit diet at the moment with carb ups every so often. I know the calorie/carb/protein/fat gram intake as i have created the diet for her. Her protein is high but again she is not really interested in building muscle...mostly reducing bf and retaining the muscle she has...any excess muscle would be considered a bonus. I also monitor and record weights and maximums attained in the gym. As for measurements that is an idea we will try. Just a side note...this is the second time running igf for SC..i also ran 40 mcg/day for 5 days with her the first time and saw nothing...but it was a different source and i was running it as a bridge as well...ie no aas or other ergogens. I will be trying it again this time with aas so we will see what difference that makes. I guess my point is really that if the changes are not dramatic as seen in really good responders, than it is not worth the money. I know if i run a simple cycle of tren, not changing any variables i and others can attest to dramatic changes without resorting to the tape or scale...so that would be what i am looking for. I am still curious to see the end result and we wil add some object measurements to the experiment...hopefully this will shed some more light. Oh and seeing varying anecdotal reports i dont assume everyone makes dramatic gain...as seen by SJR...there are quite a number of non responders...which is sad...and i hope i am not one of them...but they do exist. So i gues what i was trying to say would be either you are a great responder or not...if you fall into the latter than igf is not for you...as the risks far outweigh the benefits.



Peace,
P

[MaxRep]

SC, Your open-mindedness (is that a word? ;)) is a positive testament to you.

Some suggestions:
1. Only use the IGF on days you work out. It looks like you're planning on using it at 50mcg/day for 20 straight days and that can be stretched out a little with modification to your 2/1 WO schedule.
2. I know you have a demanding job but try to eat more, especially protein. Whatever you're eating, do your best to increase it no matter how busy you are.
3. On your days off, especially on the weekends, go crazy with the food. Junk food, good food, whatever you want, eat a lot. Between the IGF and your cardio and weight workouts, I don't think this will hinder your goal of cutting. Remember, the more muscle you have, the more fat you burn.
4. You should be able to get 4 good objective measurements. Now, in one week, in another week which would be the end, and then a final one a week after your IGF cycle ends to capture any possible remaing benefits. If you stretch out your IGF dose to match your 2/1 workout schedule, you can even get 5 measurements.


Good luck,

MaxRep

[MaxRep]

P, I understand what you're saying and however you guys want to do it is of course, fine.

However, I have no doubt as to why she's not responding.

"she is on a calorie deficit diet at the moment with carb ups every so often."

I have yet to hear of anyone who felt like IGF really worked who was on a calorie deficit diet. I'm sure there are some for whom this may work and I just haven't heard of them. But I sure wouldn't want to do it this way.

Everything I have heard, seen and researched says that a lot of food is necessary for IGF to exert its effects. I recall one scientific study which showed only those rats on a high protein diet had any increase in LBM. The rats on a normal diet didn't gain anything.

I think even your boy BGM said something to the effect of eating everything in sight and still getting more vascular and losing fat, when on IGF.

Good luck,

MaxRep

[PRAETORIAN]

Originally posted by MaxRep
P, I understand what you're saying and however you guys want to do it is of course, fine.

However, I have no doubt as to why she's not responding.

"she is on a calorie deficit diet at the moment with carb ups every so often."

I have yet to hear of anyone who felt like IGF really worked who was on a calorie deficit diet. I'm sure there are some for whom this may work and I just haven't heard of them. But I sure wouldn't want to do it this way.

Everything I have heard, seen and researched says that a lot of food is necessary for IGF to exert its effects. I recall one scientific study which showed only those rats on a high protein diet had any increase in LBM. The rats on a normal diet didn't gain anything.

Good luck,

MaxRep

Max, thanks for the info...i also have seen most benefits have been with high calorie diets...thse users also reported large appetites..hunger pains etc....something we both did not find...as i said i will be trying it again with aas and will adhere to your considerations...i will let you know how things go!
Peace,
P

[scorpiochiq]

Originally posted by MaxRep
SC, Your open-mindedness (is that a word? ;)) is a positive testament to you.

Some suggestions:
1. Only use the IGF on days you work out. It looks like you're planning on using it at 50mcg/day for 20 straight days and that can be stretched out a little with modification to your 2/1 WO schedule.
2. I know you have a demanding job but try to eat more, especially protein. Whatever you're eating, do your best to increase it no matter how busy you are.
3. On your days off, especially on the weekends, go crazy with the food. Junk food, good food, whatever you want, eat a lot. Between the IGF and your cardio and weight workouts, I don't think this will hinder your goal of cutting. Remember, the more muscle you have, the more fat you burn.
4. You should be able to get 4 good objective measurements. Now, in one week, in another week which would be the end, and then a final one a week after your IGF cycle ends to capture any possible remaing benefits. If you stretch out your IGF dose to match your 2/1 workout schedule, you can even get 5 measurements.


Good luck,

MaxRep


Hmmm, well it's not working so far so I am open to new suggestions. I will use it on training days only. As for my caloric intake, it's really not that low. But let's say the IGF is doing, and will continue to do, nothing at all. Wouldn't increasing my calories make me gain weight - unless I double my cardio, which I don't have time to do. Same with weekend refeeds.

.....I will measure tomorrow when I wake up.

Thx for your suggestions,

SC

[usman]

Hi i thought i would charm in as my goals are similiar to yours scorpiochiq. I to ran igf-1 40mcg staright and shots were done am while on a diet. I also took measurements of weight and tape meausrements on arm, waist, thigh, and calve. Caloric and macronutrient info was also documented, all this info is available in my journal in the journal section. I think you and maxpep are both right, personal reports on how you are feeling can be accurate if the person is honest and unbiased and doesnt let there emotions such as having a bad day cloud thier judgement (i am not refering that you are doing this by the way).
However meausrements and keeping track of them is also important so BOTH are exteremly valuable tools. I have been keeping track of measurements weekly both weight and tape measuremts for about two years now so i know when changes are out of the norm. Therefore if i introduce something new i am able to determine its effect unbaisedly as the results i record speak for themsleves, as i can compare them to changes before taking something new. I can understand your fustration in not seeing anything spectacular from the igf-1 yet, i didnt for the first two weeks and my recordings in my journal speak for themselves. As you are, i also am on a caloric deficit diet, low carbs and high protien, i think on a diet the physical changes probably will be slower to appear on igf-1. I would say hang in their, the igf-1 really took effect in terms of physical changes my third week, chnages in bodyfat were noticable evey few days instaed of by the end of the week. Not to overexagurate though, my last week the third week wasnt totally physique transfoming or anything, but by the end of the week it had looked like the changes in bodyfat i would expect to see after two or three weeks of dieting. Also weight changes on two scales showed only a loss of 1lb, whilst measurements on waist had shown a loss of 1/2 inch. Although this may not sound like much to people to me it was, as my waist was pretty lean any way and towards the end of my diet when i get below 29 inches waist reduction is normally slow and hard. Also results from two diets this year and last year i have never lost that amount off my waist before in a week, especially considering the two reliable scales had shown only 1lb loss. So from this i would say igf-1 definatly does work as my results are unbiased as i did 1. record objective meaurements, and 2. these measurements i recorded i have been taking these for the past two years, which has allowed me to determine solid baseline meausrements. Thus anything new i introduce to my diet i know if it has had a beneificiary effect. However interms of strength i also record everything for every exercise including weight, reps, and duration of workouts again for the past two years. Training ramained the same during igf-1 but i must note thier was no increase in strength nor was there any increase in reps. Strength and reps however were maintanied, but i was maintaining this before igf-1 so i dont think the igf-1 had any impact on my workouts. In addition i agree with maxrep i would do your shots only on workouts or a 5 on 2 off fashion, i wish i had done this as i would love to see what a 4th week could have had.

[MaxRep]

Usman, good job in being so meticulous with your journal. I'm not sure if your 1 pound loss, 1/2" off your waist is something attributable to your diet and training or your IGF intake. I understand you believe it to be the IGF. Wouldn't some reduction be attibuted to your diet and training? What you're describing with no reduction for 2 weeks and then a sudden, large and noticable reduction the third week is something that commonly happens with people who just train and diet. At any rate, very good input. Especially on the validity of both subjective feelings and objective measurements. You may want to start another thread as I don't want to hijack SC's thread here. :)

SC, I really believe you need to substantially increase the amount of protein you're taking in. Those extra calories won't be an issue, if anything, they'll allow the IGF to work and you to build a little more muscle and burn more fat. I am also a big believer in the physical and mental benefits of taking one weekend day and eating whatever you want, as much or as little. If anything, what you're doing now is slowing your metabolism and resetting your body's fat burning set-point to a lower level. The high protein daily and one eat everything day will speed up your metabolism and increase your fat burning and with the IGF will increase cells protein synthesis.

MaxRep

[scorpiochiq]

Originally posted by MaxRep

SC, I really believe you need to substantially increase the amount of protein you're taking in. Those extra calories won't be an issue, if anything, they'll allow the IGF to work and you to build a little more muscle and burn more fat. I am also a big believer in the physical and mental benefits of taking one weekend day and eating whatever you want, as much or as little. If anything, what you're doing now is slowing your metabolism and resetting your body's fat burning set-point to a lower level. The high protein daily and one eat everything day will speed up your metabolism and increase your fat burning and with the IGF will increase cells protein synthesis.
MaxRep

Done. Started plan today.

Ok, here's my measurements. I tried to measure as accurately as possible but I did it after my breakfast so I don't know if it's better to do it first thing in the morning when I wake up, and of course, how do you know if you are measuring the exact same spot the next time you do it? With a little room for error, this is what I have:

Stats:
Height 5'3
Weight (TBD)
BF (TBD)
Small-medium frame

Chest (above bustline of course) 34.5 inches
Biceps/Triceps 11.75
Waist 26 - 26.25
Thighs 21.75
Hips/Widest point 33

[scorpiochiq]

USman, thanks for the info... and the support. I gather you were doing IGF alone? If you did it over again in the same manner would you change/improve anything, other than a 5 on 2 off cycle?

SC

[LA]

Chest (above bustline of course) 34.5 inches Well, at least someone made me laugh today!

[usman]

Your right about taking measurements not being that accurate because its hard to measure in the same place again and again. A little tip when measuring waist and all others do first thing before breakfast on a empty stomach. When measuring waist take both meausrements of waist relaxed and tensed. The reason why is because sometimes you can hold your waist in too much when measuring relaxed. So for example my waist tensed is always 0.3 inches smaller then my waist relaxed, so if i measure my waist relaxed my relaxed meausrements 0.2 bigger then my tensed, then i know my relaxed measurements innacurate and ive held my stomach in too much not completely relaxing it, so for example my waist relaxed now is 27.6 inches, and tensed is 27.3 inches. Its not 100% accurate but its better then nothing. In addition when measuring thighs and arms you could meausre at a certain length so your measuring the same spot again and again.
No i didnt use alone, i was doing 1/2 shot sust eod, but had been doing this for the past 4 weeks proir to igf-1, and ran this all through igf-1. Would I have done things different yes, apart from doing 5 on 2 off, i wish i had split dosages up am and pm, because doing all am left me really tired through my workout and during the day. Also i wish i had started off at a lower carb intake and higher protein intake from the first week. Throughout the three weeks i kept my cals the same at about 2800, however every week i got rid of 30-40g carbs and replaced with protein. Also because i was getting ready for a show i couldnt risk increasing cals, but maxreps got a point all the reports ive read that show brilliant gains are people who are eating high cals and high protien. Therefore if i was not dieting for a show where i had a deadline to meet, but just dieting i would try what maxrep and LA are saying and experiment with increasing cals by increasing protien intake and see what happens.

[scorpiochiq]

Your waist is either really small or mine is really big :-P

I will try again in the morning, using your suggestions.

[MaxRep]

Geez usman, what do you weigh... about 140? Do you compete in the bantamweight class? Nothing wrong with that. I think those are the only guys I've seen with 27" waists.

MaxRep

[usman]

No i compete currently in the juniors under 21's, currently 21 so this will be my last year in this category than i will have to move up with the big boys. Remember i'm only 5ft 6inch, currently 148lbs. But i do admit im lucky that i have been blessed with a small waist, the lowest ive had it is 27.2 inch, mind you its been at 26.6 inch last year on the day of my second competition due to extracell water loss.

[scorpiochiq]

Hmmm, well I am still experiencing headaches, especially in the morning when I am at the gym. Workouts and strength has been really good with pretty decent pumps. I have put on muscle mass, no doubt, however I have also been working my *ss off. So, who knows what is doing what. As for fat loss, despite the fact I am dieting and working hard I am not dropping at all, and if anything, it's minimal. Which leads me to believe any change is due to the diet and not the IGF. BTW, I re-did my waist measurement this morning and it is 26 inches.

As for the muscle growth - great but without the fat loss I feel like I look bulky. I think I will be able to form a better opinion of IGF come day 14. It's funny that the first 4-5 days were fantastic (pumps and all), then things dropped off. If I did it all over again, I think I may stay on 5 days, then off 5 days, etc. Now I am doing 5 on 2 off.

[MaxRep]

Keep a positive attitude. You're doing great. :)

Remember, the mirror plays tricks on you. It is highly unlikely that you've gained even a single pound of pure muscle in such a short time. And since you don't feel like you've lost any fat, there is no way your appearance has really changed much. Therefore, there is no way you are now "bulky", unless you have always been bulky. Which you were not. Your measurements show a fit and shapely figure. 34.5-26-33... I better stop before I get in trouble... :)

It is possible that the pump and your muscles filling out a little from your hard workouts are giving you a mental feeling of bulkyness. But to an objective observer it's doubtful anything other than that will be noticed.

It's too bad you couldn't have done an electrical or ideally hydrostatic Body Fat measurement at the start and have another one done at the end. I think you would be pleasantly surprised, even though it may only be a drop of a percent or two.

Good luck,
MaxRep

[BGMKE7]

JUST WAIT UNTIL WEEK 4! you are experiencing exactly what i did.i wanted the gains to continue at the rate it was going my first 2 weeks.i doubted the igf-1 just like you are but then out of nowhere people just started turning there heads at me and my girlfriend told me there was a big difference in the way i looked in week 3.then by week 4 when i reevaluated my progress(i.e. strength and appearance) i was just blown away.so give it time.remember it hasnt even been 2 weeks yet! nothing i have ever taken works as fast as igf-1 but even igf-1 takes time to work:)
later

[scorpiochiq]

Originally posted by MaxRep
Keep a positive attitude. You're doing great. :)

Remember, the mirror plays tricks on you. It is highly unlikely that you've gained even a single pound of pure muscle in such a short time. And since you don't feel like you've lost any fat, there is no way your appearance has really changed much. Therefore, there is no way you are now "bulky", unless you have always been bulky. Which you were not. Your measurements show a fit and shapely figure. 34.5-26-33... I better stop before I get in trouble... :)

It is possible that the pump and your muscles filling out a little from your hard workouts are giving you a mental feeling of bulkyness. But to an objective observer it's doubtful anything other than that will be noticed.

It's too bad you couldn't have done an electrical or ideally hydrostatic Body Fat measurement at the start and have another one done at the end. I think you would be pleasantly surprised, even though it may only be a drop of a percent or two.

Good luck,
MaxRep

First of all, thanks sooo much for the support ... and for making me feel sexy ;-). At the gym I go to we have an electrical body fat measuring device but I happen to know that it is scewed. I have a few friends that are trainers there and they say it is purposely elevated to make ppl thing they are fatter than they are ........ so they will buy personal training sessions. I have been looking for fat calipers but funny enough they aren't easy to find.

I happen to know of another female that started IGF (alone) and its day 4 and she is noticing a huge change (her bf even noticed), extremely fatigued, and extreme hunger --- the same symptoms that 'super responders' felt. Of course I am pretty sure she is comign off a cycle - which means she may still have some residual aas in her system.

Anyways, I haven't lost all hope yet. ;-)


And thx BGMK... I'll try and be more patient

[ATK]

Scorpioquic, I read that your takeing a cocktail of injectable vitamins from your doctor. If you already know then ignore this, but you can get all your b12 and injectable vitamins over the counter in Canada for a fraction of the cost. No prescription fees. Just trying to save you some money.
P.S. thanks for the great thread.

[scorpiochiq]

Is it only B12 though - this is sort of a special blend with a few things, incld folic acid.


As for IGF - I took 2 days off this weekend b/c I wasn't training (it was my bday so i partied instead). Hoping that when I start again Monday morning I will feel something from the mini-break. Who knows.

[scorpiochiq]

Day 13) Dropped a couple pds I think - if the scale at my gym is right then I am 119 with gym clothes and after a shake, so say 118. I started in the early 120's however I started during my period (bloating galore) and I have been officially dieting 3 weeks. I truly think any weight loss is due to the latter and not the IGF.

I am carbing up on the Sundays, yet I am not getting the same pumps as when I started.


We will see this week what happens.

[MaxRep]

If you're on fairly low carbs throughout the week, one day of higher carbs may not be enough. I thought it may be for you at 120 pounds and also I know you're concerned about BF and weight but it's probably hurting your gains. I know for myself at 220 pounds, one day is definitely not enough. Generally, poor pumps always mean too few carbs. But the pump may not matter. Muscle growth and losing fat are your goals, as I understand them. A four pound weight drop sounds like too much for "period" weight fluctuation, for someone your size. However, a couple pound water weight fluctuation along with a couple pound weight drop in fat due to your workouts and cardio and diet, over several weeks, sounds about right.

I will also mention that on another board, an advanced member mentioned that he's on his second straight month. I asked him about continued progress as many report reduced benefits after one month. He said he's noticing more changes now than he did in his first month.

Protocols are still being developed and there are only now a large number of people trying this and reporting on it. No one has really figured out optimal methods so, if I were you, I would finish out this cycle and then take a break and then do another cycle completely differently than this one. Figure up a completely different protocol and give that a try and compare results. Using AAS however wouldn't be a fair comparison. I'm thinking differences in time and diet and traing. Something like: Drop the cardio, increase the weight training, use the IGF for 8 weeks (need 2 vials at 50mcg/day) on training days only and increase your carbs and especially protein significantly. Get up to about 3 grams protein/lb bodyweight.

Good luck,

MaxRep

[ATK]

Scorpioquic, I'm not trying to push anything on you but mabey for what your trying to accomplish PGF2A would better.

I plan on trying it in December at variouse doses and protocols (on my lab rats that is). Right now I'm trying to get some more info on another forum.

[scorpiochiq]

Hey ATK, I'm in T.O too. What's PGF2A?


Maxrep, Buddy thanks for all your help. I turned today into a carb up day. I think it will really benefit me. Not to mention it tastes oh so good ;-)

[scorpiochiq]

http://www.musclechemistry.com/showthread/t-20513.html

Holy shit those are some side effects!

"
Side effects associated with PGF2a use are an elevation in body temperature, vomiting, labored breathing and severe abdominal pain/cramping. As PGF2a vasoconstricts the blood vessels in the lungs, the user will feel a tightening in the chest. If you're an asthmatic, use of PGFa could very well put you into full respiratory arrest followed by death. Because PGF2a increases insulinogenic effects, hypoglycemia is a potential side effect.


PGF2a has a very short half-life in the body (only minutes) and most of it is metabolized in the lungs, thus making frequent injections necessary. PGF2a will almost always cause a very strong contraction of the intestine and bladder, emptying the stomach and intestines of all its contents. That's a nice way of saying you'll have explosive diarrhea."


I think I will pass, haha

[Koevoet]

Originally posted by ATK
Scorpioquic, I'm not trying to push anything on you but mabey for what your trying to accomplish PGF2A would better.

I plan on trying it in December at variouse doses and protocols (on my lab rats that is). Right now I'm trying to get some more info on another forum.

ATK, no way bro. PGF2a is used to induce labor, it should not ever be used by women, pregnant or otherwise.

Koevoet.

[scorpiochiq]

Originally posted by MaxRep


I will also mention that on another board, an advanced member mentioned that he's on his second straight month. I asked him about continued progress as many report reduced benefits after one month. He said he's noticing more changes now than he did in his first month.

Hey MR,

Do you have the board name and a link to that? Sounds pretty interesting. I wonder how many people have had success with their second vial in a row.

Thanks Bro.


SC

[MaxRep]

SC, he felt people would continue to make gains beyond the 1st month and was seeing positive changes himself in his second month. Check your PM.

MaxRep

[IM^]

Just felt the need to highlight NOT to do what ATK suggested here. Women should NOT only REFRAIN from using PGF2a (ie: via any type of injection), they should also AVOID coming into contact with it in ANY way, even via dermal (skin) contact. If I may reproduce the warning that comes with the insert:

========
Women of child-bearing age, asthmatics, and persons with bronchial and other respiratory problems should exercise extreme caution when handling this product. In the early stages, women may be unaware of their pregnancies. Dinoprost tromethamine is readily absorbed through the skin and can cause abortion and/or bronchiospasms. Direct contact with the skin should, therefore, be avoided. Accidental spillage on the skin should be washed off immediately with soap and water.
========


In short, Ms. Scorpiochiq and any other females considering/being told about PGF2a use - DO NOT TOUCH. :o

[IM^]

As a postscript, I have used just about everything there is to use and PGF2a is definitely a no no, for anyone, male or female. This stuff is just too much trouble. It gives you nightmares actually - or rather, it gives your butt nightmares. :p - for little or no gains. Not worth the trouble.

[scorpiochiq]

I would never go that route. I wouldn't be able to forgive myself if I did --- just to lose a little fat? Then I am no better than the women spending every week at the plastic surgeons trying to look like a barbie doll.

Thx IM

[Koevoet]

Originally posted by IM^
As a postscript, I have used just about everything there is to use and PGF2a is definitely a no no, for anyone, male or female. This stuff is just too much trouble. It gives you nightmares actually - or rather, it gives your butt nightmares. :p - for little or no gains. Not worth the trouble.

I'll have to disagree. PGF2a may not be suitable for females, but it certainly has been worth it for me. I'll be picking up another 3 bottles in fact. I've taken up to 5mg per shot, and taken 2.5mg every half hour. Right now, I'm doing 2.5mg every hour, up to 35mg per day on the weekends.

Negative sides: Slight headaches that went away after a week. Occasional nausea. Lethargy after about 10mg total. Pain. Farting like a carthorse.

Positve sides: Fat loss. Increased vascularity, freaky in fact. Slight increase in muscle mass.

I have never had the alleged explosive shits you hear about,

[IM^]

Welcome. PGF2a is really not worth the (extreme) discomfort it causes. For a woman to lose bodyfat, there are several other tricks that she can use that are far more effective and safer. Remember that females are obviously far more sensitive to manipulation of endogenous hormonal levels and any playing around with such a delicate balance of hormones in a woman's body must be done with great respect and by someone who is both knowledgeable in such matters and very deferential to the woman under his care. I have seen far too many so-called gurus really screw up people they are supposed to be helping out because they had no idea what they were doing or because they simply couldn't give a flying...errr...copulatory act to a rolling Krispy Kreme. I mean no disrespect to the people in this forum of course - most are well-meaning and very knowledgeable. Just take care.

Koevoet, that's interesting. Obviously different people will have different reactions. What brand are you using? Where do you inject? How deep do you go? Almost all the guinea pigs I have had on PGF2 had some degree of defecation, ranging from quite bad to pretty damn bad. PGF2a causes a peristaltic contraction of the intestinal smooth muscle which will induce an emptying of most or all the intestinal contents, the degree of which will obviously be individual specific. However, if I may ask, are the positive effects which you have noticed transient or long term? What degree of fat loss are we talking about and was it entirely due to PGF2a or were you taking something else with it and/or did the diet change? Just asking out of interest, I like to catalogue all the real world data on as many chemicals as I can get. Cheers.

[Koevoet]

No problem. It obviously isn't worth it to you, but it is to me.

I agree that women should never touch it, in fact I made that comment earlier on in this thread.

[Koevoet]

Originally posted by IM^

Koevoet, that's interesting. Obviously different people will have different reactions. What brand are you using? Where do you inject? How deep do you go? Almost all the guinea pigs I have had on PGF2 had some degree of defecation, ranging from quite bad to pretty damn bad. PGF2a causes a peristaltic contraction of the intestinal smooth muscle which will induce an emptying of most or all the intestinal contents, the degree of which will obviously be individual specific. However, if I may ask, are the positive effects which you have noticed transient or long term? What degree of fat loss are we talking about and was it entirely due to PGF2a or were you taking something else with it and/or did the diet change? Just asking out of interest, I like to catalogue all the real world data on as many chemicals as I can get. Cheers.

ProstaMate, 30ml vials, 5mg/ml. I use a slin pin, go in a full half inch, and alternate between IM (in my delts, bi's, traps & forearms) and SubQ (in my sides, abs & chest )

As I said, it makes me fart like a carthorse (plus they stink to high heaven), and also makes me take a piss. The only time I got the shits was after eating Taco Hell for lunch and then taking 15mg in 3 hours. Other than that, nothing. ALthough I do notice the intestinal spasm, not that they are bothersome, just that I can notice them.

As for the positive effects being permanent, I'm not sure as I'm still taking it. No diet change, no other supplements. Fat loss has not been extreme, but definitely noticable, in fact my woman noticed it before I did. I noticed the vascularity though, that has increased more than ever before.

The biggest problem in my opinion is the pain. I have a fairly high threshold (have given myself sutures without anaesthetic a few times in the past) but atfer shooting the same muscle 2 or 3 times in a day, I'm pretty much toast. I also think that PGF2a will amplify pain in other parts of your body. For example I had a cut in my mouth from sparring, and whenever I took a shot, it hurt like a mofo.

[IM^]

That is very interesting and most unusual. You inject upper body as well? And with no gastric side effects? Do you know anyone else who has done this succesfully? ProstaMate is made by AgriLabs so the problem of it being a fake/inferior product is not the case. And I concur about the shots being as painful as hell; I have had several cases of my guinea pigs' muscles literally going into a spasm while they were being injected, accompanied by strings of visceral profanities that induced mental damage. Which is partly the reason why I don't like PGF-2; something that hurts that much had better give me something to marvel at in a short time. The other reason of course being that it turns you into an industrial grade poop machine. You're the first person I have talked to who did not get this side effect. Very instructive. Thanks for sharing the info.