IGF and Insulin????!?!?!?

[Bently]

Here are some thoughts I have and am looking for other's opinions or experience:
Being fully aware that using IGF-1R and Insulin simulataneously is dangerous, I had some ideas on how it MAY be safer. The IGF basically increases insulin sensitivity, thereby making it much more difficult to predict and control if and when you may go hypoglycemic with added insulin.
Basing this on 2 factors-
1)Humlin-R is active approx. 4-6 hrs
2) IGF-1R is active for approx. 12 hrs
Now assuming you did 5-10IU of insulin in the morning it would clear your system in 4-6 hrs. Then if you workout in the evening and do post workout IGF-1R between 6-8PM it would clear your system by the next morning. It seems that this method of timing the use would allow both substances to be used together.
Any thoughts on this? Anything I have overlooked that could be potentially dangerous?

KR

[Cordoba]

Seems like this would make usage of both IGF-1 and Insulin more predicatable. If you experiance with insulin already I say try it and let us know if the IGF-1 had and negative effects on the insulin usage 12 hours later.

[BonerBoy]

even if the Igf does clear completly by 12 hrs that does'nt mean a person would no longer be sensitive to insulin after 12 hrs

[sweatmachine]

I have to agree with bonerboy ( I cant believe I just said that) But I am testing the slin waters now. Next go around with IGF will be in Jan., I think I tinker with the slin and IGF then. Your thoughts do make sense though....

[borrachopower]

damn, i have to logg on like 10x before this lets me post...
anyway, today i used 10 units humulin R along with 20mcg of IGF-1.
no problem at all....
i had a couple of drinks loaded with dextrose just in case..plus it helps that i have a medical background and my chic is an RN. i dont recommend this to anyone...i kinda experimented on myself.

[big_byrd52]

i am looking into this as well. I WILL be using slin with mine. i will use log. still working out the details. i have been talking to garbageman on bolex about this. he works in a lab that experiments with growth factors( lucky bastard!!). i will post our pms after we get it all straight.

[Bently]

SOunds good Big_BYRD, looking forward to seeing it.

KR

[big_byrd52]

OK, thru talking with Garbageman I have learned some info that while I had a vague understanding of Slin/GH interaction, there was alot of missing info. He helped me understand it better so I will post the PMs and hope they help clarify it for you all as well.

big_byrd52 wrote on 12-20-2003 11:35 PM:
hey garbageman, i found this old post on using IGF and GH together with slin. i was unclear about ur last post on wether is was good to use slin with IGF or not. here is the link, thanks

garbageman wrote on 12-24-2003 09:31 AM:
YES!!!!!!!Without question you need the insulin present to help with the ever occuring IGF-1 binding proteins. The insulin and the binding proteins, enzyme / substrate binding site are as much a like as igf and the binding protein so it (slin) will take up the binding proteins instead of the igf. if igf binds to the igf binding protein site (like normal but still bad) the igf is bound up and rendered usless as far as anabolic purposes are concerned. I know this sounds a bit weird but if you re-read it, it will make sense. Think of it this way Igf is a running back, the igf binding proteins are linebackers and the slin is a fullback that knows how to throw killer blocks down field!

big_byrd52 wrote on Today 12:30 AM:
hey,

ok thanks. i understand the concept of receptor sites and binding. i took some extra chem and bio classes to get a better grasp on the basics. So with the slin, does it matter what time it is administered? i will be using humalog, which has 1 and half hour active life. should it be taken at the same time as IGF? thanks for the help.

Garbageman:
Yes!! Take it in the same dart as the IGF-1 (or GH for the sake of argument). IGF-1 (regular sequence, not the Long)....has a active plasma half life of about 20 minutes !!! That sucks! and these binding proteins are ALWAYS ready and wait to attach to the igf and render it useless ....that sucks too! I would most definatly do them at the same time and I would also addminister the igf DIRECTLY after training, this is when you will get the most bang for your buck INCLUDING the insulin use. I assume you know how much slin to use and LILLY is a great choice, I stick with humalin R to keep things as simple as possible, I think the R "kicks in and starts to bring down glucose levelsa about 28 minites into injection (sub cu). I would not reccome d going over board on the slin like some of these kamakazzis I rad on the boards, they are young and are playing with fire. I am probably preaching to the choir about this though. P.S. IGF receptor gets up regulated form stress...i.e. weight training!! Finally something that doesn't suck!
Good luck my bro and if I can help you out any more I will do my best to point you in the right direction! For new years, be a huge shreaded freak for me...since I am not using any growth peptides this year and am dieting down to be a dweeby ripped up nerd!! No really, I am trying to qualify for nationals this year and my diet kicks in the second week in January so it looks like putting on size is out the window for me!
P.S. don't listen to the jerk offs who tell you to take this or GH at night....bad idea!

Big_byrd52:
thanks bro,

i have been taking my GH at night, i dont know if its because of the Gh or not, but i wake up almost every hour on the nights i take it, but not on the weekends? i was under the immpression that u should take Gh when insulin levels are low, ie away from slin and carb meals. there is so much conflicting info it gets confusing. I am using jintropin GH and will be adding in IGF LR3 soon. does the same rule apply with LR3 as with the reg? I usually use 10 units log post workout with an n-large shake, 86 g carbs, and half of one an hour later. Should this be adjusted while on LR3?

Garbageman:
I understand you concern about the conflicting info..there are tons and everyone is an expert. You have to see what works best for you, as long as it is supported by science and proven documented facts. i can olny give you my advise but I assure you everything I do (and say) has been clinically supported, I wouldn't do it myself otherwise, I don't care if "joe schmo" said it worked, untill it is proven in-vitro and more importantly in-vivo I wouldn't waste my time. The reason I would NOT take my GH at night is becasue I would supress my own endogenous GH secreations, off the feedback mechanism. Natural GH levels, which is almost the same amount at typical dosage of a BB injection, excreation is lost. So you do ot have that going for you. Also GH levels are naturally secreated when insulin is low an glucagon is high, so you missed out on this too. If you are not using insulin as a GHBP blocker (or for lack of better words uptake), you are not getting the full effect of the drug.
Remember this....EVERYBODY has the same metabolic pathways......but we all do not go down the path at the same speed. meaning when you here that fat chick complain, "that doesn't work for me!" that is bull shit. Cellular biology and pharmacolgy all follow the same rules and your cell reacts the same way as the fat chicks does, just that ceratin reactions may not be as amplified.
the only difference as far as anabolic purposes between regluar IGF and long strand is because they genetically added on to the end of thew AA strand, it has a longer plasma half life and is less prone to being sucked up and attached to GHBP, technically making it more anabolic.


big_byrd52 wrote on Yesterday 02:18 PM:
Hey,

i believe what u are saying, i have read most of ur posts where set the record straigt for some of these guys. thats why im asking u so many questions. thanks for taking the time to teach me. so far what we have is:
1) take slin, igf or slin,Gh at the same time to bind up IGF-1 BPs and GHBPs.
2) dont take Gh at night. i assume first thing in the morning or if wake up at night to piss.
3) Take IGF & slin post workout

One more question, for now at least, i am unclear about GH relaese when insulin is low but glucogon is high. is glucogon produced when frotein is broken down for fuel? How does injecting GH and slin at the same time mimick this scenerio? Also, how should i approach carb intake around gh shot

Garbageman:
Yes! You got it my man! The only thing is, and I may have explained it wrong was with the glucogan thing. You are correct when you say that high glucogan levels are up when aminos are being oxidized for ATP, that is what glucogan does.this process is called glucogeonenisis. But injecting slin does not mimic this, it shuts glucogeonenisis off thus lowering glucogon levels, think of glucogon levels and insulin levels as a teader totter if one is up the other is down. NOW here is the thing when natural glucogon is high, natural GH is raised, when natural insulin is high natural gh is low. but when you inject slin, obviously your natural GH will be low plus it would be low anyhow because you will be injecting GH with it anyhow and the body will recognize GH levels present and not put out any either.
Your carb intake 6-10gr of carbs per unit of insulin, if they arwe simple carbs you can afford to be on the lower side of they arte complex, stick with the 10gr/unit. But it is better to be safe and eat a bit more then slip into a coma. The other deal with using slin with gh and IGF is the decrease in insulin sensativity in the cell for uptake of nutrients....but that is another story.



We are discusing the issue of slin sensitivity and the use of T3 with Gh.

[Bently]

Ecellent BigB! Thanks for the update, I may try it together tomorrow (since the wife will be home to dial 911...LOL)
KR

[Bently]

Ok Big_byrd, here's how it was......
Got home from the gym around 4pm, had a carb drink with 100g malto, took my shot of 5omcg IGF1-L, 20IU of BW, AND 5IU Slin. 30 Minutes later I had a protein shake of 60-70g. 1 hour after that had steak, baked potato and salad. I had another protein shake about an hour after that.
My food intake schedule was similar to when i do just slin except I did eat a bit more, and even though i was stuffed right after eating, within an hour i was hungry again. I had a couple pieces of hershey chocolate kisses in-between as I was feeling "weird" a couple times and did not want to go hypo. The biggest problem was that I could hardly keep my eyes open. The IGF-1 always makes me very tired and groggy but this was way worse, specially since I do not want to fall asleep and go hypo.
All in all it wasn't bad, although I did feel I was walking a fine-line between getting enough food in me or going hypo. I will probably try it again tonight after the gym, however need to come up with a way to combat the tired feeling, maybe I'll have some coffee with it.

KR

[big_byrd52]

Have u done slin before? what did u use, the humilin-R? I will be using humalog. You ate plenty to cover just the slin, and people say that there are no feelings of hypo after IGF. But maybe there is some synergy with both. I usually use 8-10 iu with an N-Large which has 86g carbs. i will start with 5 as well to see if there is any probs. I have let myself go pretty far into hypo just to see where the limit is. i start monday.

I am doing GH at 2 iu in morn. with 5iu Log and 2 serv oatmeal w/ shake. Then will do IGF(lab-corp) at 50mcg w/ Log at 5iu for the first time ( if no probs ill go back up to 8-10iu.) at 7pm post workout. Running the same gear ive been on for 10-12 weeks.

[Bently]

Originally posted by big_byrd52
Have u done slin before? what did u use, the humilin-R? I will be using humalog. You ate plenty to cover just the slin, and people say that there are no feelings of hypo after IGF. But maybe there is some synergy with both. I usually use 8-10 iu with an N-Large which has 86g carbs. i will start with 5 as well to see if there is any probs. I have let myself go pretty far into hypo just to see where the limit is. i start monday.

I am doing GH at 2 iu in morn. with 5iu Log and 2 serv oatmeal w/ shake. Then will do IGF(lab-corp) at 50mcg w/ Log at 5iu for the first time ( if no probs ill go back up to 8-10iu.) at 7pm post workout. Running the same gear ive been on for 10-12 weeks.

Yes I've done slin before(Hum-R), typically go 10-12 IU, keeping my carb drink at about 7-8g per IU, so I did go higher yesterday when using slin and IGF, and I definitely ate more food wise with my meal.
The IGF-1R I've been on for 2 weeks now and have had no problems or feelings of going hypo ever without. Only sleepiness. There definitely seemed to be something to the combined effect though. That's why I kept the slin low to start with. I'll use the same amounts today to see if the effect is the same or not before upping the slin.
KR

[big_byrd52]

sounds good. 2 weeks without slin and 2 with, hopefully u can tell a difference.

[Cordoba]

Insulins effectiveness is increased with IGF so I deffinatly wouldn't work up to your nomal 12iu of slin + the IGF. Keep us updated...maybe half the slin you would normally use is a good amount to be using inconjunction with IGF-1.

[Bently]

Originally posted by KidRok
Ok Big_byrd, here's how it was......
Got home from the gym around 4pm, had a carb drink with 100g malto, took my shot of 5omcg IGF1-L, 20IU of BW, AND 5IU Slin. 30 Minutes later I had a protein shake of 60-70g. 1 hour after that had steak, baked potato and salad. I had another protein shake about an hour after that.
My food intake schedule was similar to when i do just slin except I did eat a bit more, and even though i was stuffed right after eating, within an hour i was hungry again. I had a couple pieces of hershey chocolate kisses in-between as I was feeling "weird" a couple times and did not want to go hypo. The biggest problem was that I could hardly keep my eyes open. The IGF-1 always makes me very tired and groggy but this was way worse, specially since I do not want to fall asleep and go hypo.
All in all it wasn't bad, although I did feel I was walking a fine-line between getting enough food in me or going hypo. I will probably try it again tonight after the gym, however need to come up with a way to combat the tired feeling, maybe I'll have some coffee with it.

KR

Did this again after training friday, only difference is had some coffee too which did seem to help with the sleepiness. I will continue with this dosage, see no reason to increase it yet.

KR

[physiqueartist]

awesome post!!!!

Question just to clarify as I am starting my Igf-1 Monday Jan 5th.

50mg of Igf-1 with 5-7 ius same pin-post training around 7 pm at night. Followed by inlarge shake- hour later good meal with combo protein 50-60grams (steak or chicken) and carb 50 grams (brown Rice)


will taking it at 7 effect my natural gh release at night?

And do you guy use Ba with your shots and where do you get it?

Thanks

[Cordoba]

Don't know about the IGF-1 affecting natural GH release, but you should beable to get BA from the same place you got IGF-1...maybe check out some of the board sponsers sites.

[sweatmachine]

I use BW to push IGF thru NOT BA. BA is use to suspend IGF, so if you want to cut the IGF for easier and more accurate measurements the use BA. Other wisw BA isnt going to feel so great IM or SubQ

[physiqueartist]

I get confused so I would use bw to push Igf-1 and make measurment more accurate- can you get bw from a store or do you have to oder on-line.

[Cordoba]

BW stands for Bacteriostatic Water, you can purchase it on-line although you might beable to get it at a pharmacy, I have never tried that but give them a call.

[Bently]

Originally posted by physiqueartist
awesome post!!!!

Question just to clarify as I am starting my Igf-1 Monday Jan 5th.

50mg of Igf-1 with 5-7 ius same pin-post training around 7 pm at night. Followed by inlarge shake- hour later good meal with combo protein 50-60grams (steak or chicken) and carb 50 grams (brown Rice)


will taking it at 7 effect my natural gh release at night?

And do you guy use Ba with your shots and where do you get it?

Thanks

First,it's 50 mCg of IGF....not sure if you typoed that mg or not. Yes the IGF and Slin and BW all go into the same pin. I did not pre-dilute the IGF with BA so basically on a 1/2CC slin pin I draw 5IU IGF 1st, then 5IU of slin, then about 20 IU of BW so that the pin is loaded to the 30 IU mark, then just point and shoot! Just remember that combining the 2 multiplies the effect of the slin so you may need more carbs and food than with slin alone. I personally like to keep my wife around and aware of what I'm doing so she can see signs of hypo too that I may not detect soon enough.
Be careful and good luck!

KR

[physiqueartist]

Thanks for the replys- Yes kidrock it was a typo wish I coudl afford that much Igf LOL.

IS bw really necessary? Reason i ask is I do nto have any and am anxious to shoot the slin and Igf-1 tomorrow after workout. if it is I can wait a week.

[Bently]

PA, I think it's probably beneficial to be sure you get most of the IGF pushed thru. Although the insulin does help it's such a small amount I feel the BW is still needed to get the most benefit.

[big_byrd52]

The word i got is that taking IGF aound 7-ish will not have an effect on natural GH release, unless you go straight to sleep.

[GetnBigr]

this is some really good info for those of you thinking of running IGF and slin together. Just be sure to pay special attention your carb intake.

[big_byrd52]

I upped my slin use to 6iu yesterday, and 7iu tonight. I thought was getting hungry but i never got the sweats, so i was prob just thinking about it. So i went for a drive and i was fine. Still no extra hunger either.