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basskiller
09-05-2002, 04:41 PM
To do me a favor..
There is a post made by the Fonz It has to deal with fina and Gyno..
It's behind the Platinum wall where all the good posts go now...
Could someone get that for me..
thanks
bass

Gear101*
09-05-2002, 05:28 PM
hell bro i'd help but i don't have a membership..

dedprez*
09-05-2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Gear101*
hell bro i'd help but i don't have a membership..


:rolleyes: ...well alot of help u r...but dont worry gear....u r still a good guy in my eyes.....:p

basskiller
09-05-2002, 08:05 PM
I know you would if you could!

TAZ
09-05-2002, 09:22 PM
Is this part of what you are looking for bass? Nandi was posting allot more good info in that thread. Give me some more info on exactly what you are looking for and I will see what I can do.
-TAZ




This post was reprinted without permission from Fonz or Nandi12.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by nandi12
Here is an avenue that has not been explored in this thread: The potential relationship between trenbolone, thyrotropin-releasing hormone (TRH) and prolactin. TRH stimulates the synthesis and release of thyrotropin (thyroid stimulating hormone) from the pituitary. Thyrotropin in turn stimulates the release of the thyroid hormones. A negative feedback loop exists whereby low levels of T4 stimulate the release of TRH (1).

It has been established that in humans TRH is also capable of stimulating the release of prolactin (2). In hypothyroid patients there is often an elevation of TRH and prolactin due to diminished levels of T4. (3) Galactorrhea often presents as a symptom of hypothyroidism.

In sheep, administration of trenbolone acetate results in 45% decrease in thyroxine levels (4). This should exert a stimulatory effect on TRH. ( Interestingly, the same study shows that unlike in humans prolactin levels in the sheep remained unchanged. This is due to the fact that in sheep, unlike in humans, TRH and prolactin are secreted independently of each other (5).)

If it assumed that trenbolone acetate also lowers thyroxine levels in humans, the resulting rise in TRH would stimulate prolactin release, leading to galactorrhea and gynecomastia.

Due to the lack of human studies involving tren, we are all forced to speculate, and try to extrapolate from animal studies.



(1)Endocrinology 1999 Jan;140(1):43-9

Feedback regulation of thyrotropin-releasing hormone gene expression by thyroid hormone in the caudal raphe nuclei in rats.

Yang H, Yuan P, Wu V, Tache Y.
Digestive Diseases Research Center, West Los Angeles VA Medical Center, Department of Medicine and Brain Research Institute, UCLA, California 90073, USA. hoyang@ucla.edu

(2)Goodman and Gilman's The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics 8th ed. pp.1345-1346

(3) : Endocr J 1997 Feb;44(1):89-94

Incidence of hyperprolactinemia in patients with Hashimoto's thyroiditis.
Notsu K, Ito Y, Furuya H, Ohguni S, Kato Y.
Department of Medicine, Shimane Prefectural Central Hospital, Izumo, Japan.

(4)Res Vet Sci 1981 Jan;30(1):7-13

Growth hormone, insulin, prolactin and total thyroxine in the plasma of sheep implanted with the anabolic steroid trenbolone acetate alone or with oestradiol.

Donaldson IA, Hart IC, Heitzman RJ.

(5) Endocrinol 1988 Apr;117(1):115-22

Release of prolactin is independent of the secretion of thyrotrophin-releasing hormone into hypophysial portal blood of sheep.

Thomas GB, Cummins JT, Yao B, Gordon K, Clarke IJ.
Medical Research Centre, Prince Henry's Hospital, Melbourne, Australia.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, finally!!! you hit the nail right on the head.

Fina is a VERY POWERFUL anti-glucocorticoid, so what
exactly does it do to reduce endogeneous cortisone
levels?

There is only ONE mechanism:

A reduction in the TOTAL Free T4 and T3 levels within the
body.

T3 is HIGHLY catabolic to muscle, therefore by reducing it by(
take 45% as shown by Nandi as an example), you are
exerting a ridiculously high protein-sparing effect.

YES, thats right, Fina is not THAT anabolic IN VIVO, it is
far, and I do mean FAR more of an ANTI-CATABOLIC
AAS than anything else.

Ok, now lets back-track to the problem at hand.

TSH has been reduced by the trenbolone, which in
turns signals the thyroid to reduce endogeneously
produced levels of T3 and T4.

This reduction(As Nandi mentioned) causes a VERY
sharp drop in free T3 levels because of the reduction
in both the endogeneously produced T4 and T3.
(Remember that 80% of the free T3 is produced from
the metabolically inactive T4)

These dimished levels of T3,T4 cause Thyrotropin Releasing
Hormone(TRH) to become OVER-STIMULATED.

In essence, this is your bodies feed-back loop to reduced
thyroid hormones, due to a GLUCO-CORTICOID suppresive
effect. This is however NOT like hypothyroidic patients
who have a naturally defective(or damaged) thyroid.

When TRH becomes over-stimulated the net effect is
a VERY sharp increase in prolactin levels.

Critical here.....

I.E. YOU BEGIN TO LACTATE!!!!!

Now, herein lies the problem. Everybody is bio-chemically
different, therefore the TRH increase is EXTREMELY
broad-spectrum.

While someone will stimulate TRH say X% and ultimately
cause a rise in prolactin of say Y% with a daily
dosage of 50mg ED of Fina, another person will
cause a 2X% rise in TRH and 2Y+% rise in prolactin
which will invariably lead to gyno.

This is just genetics. Nothing can be done about this.

However, there are ways to combat prolactin-elevations:

This btw, HAS TO BE EXACT. If you over-dose you cause
a progestenic shift due to severely inhibited prolactin levels,
or if you under-dose you run the risk of getting prolactin
induced gyno.

As a note: PROGESTERONE does NOT, I repeat NOT come into
play with Fina at all. It only becomes into play when you're
trying to inhibit prolactin synthetically.

The only thing that can combat Fina-induced Gyno is:

1. 2.5mgs Bromocriptine broken down to 1.25mgs 2X/day
AM and PM.

Thats it.

No Vitex/Nolva/Clomid/Arimidex or whatever. They don't
work for Fina.

Fonz

Latinsteel
09-06-2002, 01:24 AM
Bass I would help but I am not plat....I'll see what I can do! NOW GIVE ME KARMA!
:D

blackdream71
09-06-2002, 08:55 AM
Hey Khan contact SMALL/PANERAI, he's a moderator over there, he'll help you out..... :)

Latinsteel
09-06-2002, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by blackdream71
Hey Khan contact SMALL/PANERAI, he's a moderator over there, he'll help you out..... :)

YEAH DO THAT!

Latinsteel
09-06-2002, 11:01 AM
Also, when the next shout out for the MC family at Elite? So far Pressure, gear101, and Dedprez have made post at Elite.

basskiller
09-06-2002, 11:03 AM
Will do Dream...
Taz, Is that second half Fonz's.. I never saved it but it looks like it..

TAZ
09-06-2002, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by basskiller
Will do Dream...
Taz, Is that second half Fonz's.. I never saved it but it looks like it..

That is from a 6 page thread actually started by golfer. It deals with Proestrogen/prolactin fina and gyno. In this thread Nandi and Fonz are exchanging posts like the one I copied. If this is the one I can get you the whole thing. I am not real sure of an easy way to it other than highlight everthing and copy it into a text file and email it to you. Let me know
-TAZ

basskiller
09-06-2002, 12:11 PM
That's all I need to know.. I hadn't seen it in awhile, but I thought that second part was written by Fonz... I just want to make sure..
Thanks!

slackerdude
09-07-2002, 01:31 AM
BK, if the above doesn't cover it, let me know, I'll try to retreive it for ya.

TAZ
09-07-2002, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by basskiller
That's all I need to know.. I hadn't seen it in awhile, but I thought that second part was written by Fonz... I just want to make sure..
Thanks!

Yes the second half of that post is by Fonz. That's kinda what lead me to that particular post. Like the others said if you need more, drop another post down on this thread.
-TAZ

basskiller
09-07-2002, 12:58 PM
Thanks guys, That was it.
bass