Pct?
- Thread starter tattoray
- Start date
S
saudades
Guest
I don't see why clomid wouldn't work. You're shut down either way. I'd go with clomid and/or hcg. Not to mention he'd want to control progesterone-induced gyno as well with an anti-p.
ballsoutpunk
New member
There is no reason why clomid won't work for PCT. The difference (which has nothing to do with clomid) is that his HPTA will begin to recover from test or dht-based steroids as soon as circulating levels fall below normal physiologic levels; however, levels of progestin-based steroids have to fall much lower before you HPTA begins to recover because men normally have close to zero circulating levels of progestins. That's why PCT for progestins should be longer than PCT for analogs of hormones naturally present in men.
Let's say you did a test only cycle and prematurely terminated PCT when exogenous (injected) test was still 15% of your normal (off cycle) test levels. At the time you discontinue PCT, your HPTA would drop back to a 85% recovered state and would then continue to recover the last 15% as the exogenous test leaves your system, although with just a little lag behind the rate at which the exogenous test leaves. This is basically the normal situation when the average person does a test e cycle with a month-long PCT.
Now, let's say you were doing a progestin-only cycle and terminated PCT when levels of the progestin of choice are 15% of your normal (off cycle) circulating test level. As soon as PCT is terminated, your pituitary will detect the circulating progestins, stop secreting LH and FSH, and your test production will drop back to near zero. For PCT to be effective when used for progestins, it has to be carried out until circulating levels of progestins are around 5% or less of normal, off-cycle test levels. 3.125% of any substance will exist after five half lives have passed. Tren ace (or anything attached to an acetate ester) has a half life of three days. Therefore, circulating levels should fall to a point that recovery can begin to take place after 15 days (3 days x 5 half lives) at common dosage levels. This is NOT the point to start or stop PCT, just the point where natural recovery can begin to take place. You would want to start PCT before this time to get your body prepared to begin producing test again. Since natural recovery will not be anything close to immediate, you should run PCT for two weeks beyond this point, or a few weeks longer than that if the cycle was particularly long.
The main difference is that if you end PCT prematurely on a cycle of only test or dht-based gear, you'll continue to recover, it will just be a little more slowly. If you prematurely end PCT on a cycle of progestin-based gear, you will crash back to a state of very low natural test production until progestin levels drop to a sufficiently low point that recovery can take place. This effect will be less severe if the progestin cycle contains test as well.
If your friend begins PCT a few days after the last injection and ends PCT around 30 days after the last injection, that should be sufficient for near 100% complete recovery regardless of the SERM as long as the dose is adequate. By the way, I'm making the assumption that the cycle wasn't excessively long ( > 10-12 weeks) because I don't know of anyone who would want to run tren ace and do the required ED or EOD injections for a long cycle.
Going beyond the original question - the fact that progestins must drop to near zero before natural HPTA function can resume in men is the reason that why some people have prolonged problems (such as deca dick) after using progestins with long esters. The decanoate ester has a half life of 15 days, and it would five of those half lives after the last injection for levels to reach 3.125% of what steady state levels were when on cycle. That's 75 days, and I never hear of anyone running PCT for 10 weeks after a 12 week deca cycle. This is why I'm all for switching to short esters for the last month of a cycle. If you ran a deca (nandrolone decanoate) cycle, then switched to NPP (nandrolone phenylpropionate) for the last month of the cycle, you'd only need to do PCT for around six weeks, which is much easier. If you want to keep gains and simplify PCT but get away with as few injections as possible when doing cycles of progestins, starting the cycle with long esters (frontloading if desired) then switching to short esters for the last month and/or running test longer than the progestin is really the way to go. Also, just as a side note, there are a lot of variables here, such as natural test levels, individual pituitary sensitivity to progestins, gear dosage, etc. That means none of these caluculations can be applied across the board for everyone and be totally accurate. It's always better to err on the side of caution, which, in this case, means tacking on an extra week or two of PCT at a minimum dose. The longer the ester, the more the uncertainty, so padding on a little extra time could be more important for long esters than short esters.
Let's say you did a test only cycle and prematurely terminated PCT when exogenous (injected) test was still 15% of your normal (off cycle) test levels. At the time you discontinue PCT, your HPTA would drop back to a 85% recovered state and would then continue to recover the last 15% as the exogenous test leaves your system, although with just a little lag behind the rate at which the exogenous test leaves. This is basically the normal situation when the average person does a test e cycle with a month-long PCT.
Now, let's say you were doing a progestin-only cycle and terminated PCT when levels of the progestin of choice are 15% of your normal (off cycle) circulating test level. As soon as PCT is terminated, your pituitary will detect the circulating progestins, stop secreting LH and FSH, and your test production will drop back to near zero. For PCT to be effective when used for progestins, it has to be carried out until circulating levels of progestins are around 5% or less of normal, off-cycle test levels. 3.125% of any substance will exist after five half lives have passed. Tren ace (or anything attached to an acetate ester) has a half life of three days. Therefore, circulating levels should fall to a point that recovery can begin to take place after 15 days (3 days x 5 half lives) at common dosage levels. This is NOT the point to start or stop PCT, just the point where natural recovery can begin to take place. You would want to start PCT before this time to get your body prepared to begin producing test again. Since natural recovery will not be anything close to immediate, you should run PCT for two weeks beyond this point, or a few weeks longer than that if the cycle was particularly long.
The main difference is that if you end PCT prematurely on a cycle of only test or dht-based gear, you'll continue to recover, it will just be a little more slowly. If you prematurely end PCT on a cycle of progestin-based gear, you will crash back to a state of very low natural test production until progestin levels drop to a sufficiently low point that recovery can take place. This effect will be less severe if the progestin cycle contains test as well.
If your friend begins PCT a few days after the last injection and ends PCT around 30 days after the last injection, that should be sufficient for near 100% complete recovery regardless of the SERM as long as the dose is adequate. By the way, I'm making the assumption that the cycle wasn't excessively long ( > 10-12 weeks) because I don't know of anyone who would want to run tren ace and do the required ED or EOD injections for a long cycle.
Going beyond the original question - the fact that progestins must drop to near zero before natural HPTA function can resume in men is the reason that why some people have prolonged problems (such as deca dick) after using progestins with long esters. The decanoate ester has a half life of 15 days, and it would five of those half lives after the last injection for levels to reach 3.125% of what steady state levels were when on cycle. That's 75 days, and I never hear of anyone running PCT for 10 weeks after a 12 week deca cycle. This is why I'm all for switching to short esters for the last month of a cycle. If you ran a deca (nandrolone decanoate) cycle, then switched to NPP (nandrolone phenylpropionate) for the last month of the cycle, you'd only need to do PCT for around six weeks, which is much easier. If you want to keep gains and simplify PCT but get away with as few injections as possible when doing cycles of progestins, starting the cycle with long esters (frontloading if desired) then switching to short esters for the last month and/or running test longer than the progestin is really the way to go. Also, just as a side note, there are a lot of variables here, such as natural test levels, individual pituitary sensitivity to progestins, gear dosage, etc. That means none of these caluculations can be applied across the board for everyone and be totally accurate. It's always better to err on the side of caution, which, in this case, means tacking on an extra week or two of PCT at a minimum dose. The longer the ester, the more the uncertainty, so padding on a little extra time could be more important for long esters than short esters.
ballsoutpunk
New member
Having a libido isn't the only reason you need test. For example, DHT is one thing that counteracts the growth of breast tissue. DHT is converted from circulating testosterone. If you shut yourself down with a progestin that can cause breast tissue growth (tren), you've strongly tipped the scale in favor of developing gyno. Not to mention, test is cheap and effective and you're already sticking yourself anyway. Carrying out PCT properly after a cycle that does not include test is all the more tricky. Why would you not use test?
tattoray
New member
intersting post. so if i am reading this right. and hes is already doing tren only. it would be a good idea to add test and possibly run it a few weeks longer than the tren and then go with a typical PCT?
ballsoutpunk
New member
I would say "absolutely" and I think the rest of us would agree. Test prop would be an excellent choice. I would do a minimum of 400mg/wk. If your friend chose to go this route, tren ace is such a short ester that you would probably not need to run test more than a week longer than tren to make PCT much easier. Have him go ahead and start test immediately. It will be worth it in gains and preventing problems. Wait 5 - 7 days after the last (test) injection, then run the SERM of your choice for four to five weeks. That should be sufficient.
IGF is great to take alongside a SERM during PCT if you're interested in throwing a little more money at it. A lot of people continue to make gains throughout PCT with this combination.
ballsoutpunk
New member
No problem. I think life will be much easier and he'll be happier with the results in the gym.
Good luck!
