Llewellyn on Steroids #1 - Underground Steroids, Steroid Bridge?

Llewellyn on Steroids #1 - Underground Steroids, Steroid Bridge?
by William Llewellyn
Author of Anabolics - Anabolic Steroid Reference Manual
World-renowned anabolic authority, William Llewellyn has written and rewritten the definitive book on steroids. His series of ANABOLICS books have become the most trusted steroid and performance drug reference book of its kind. For over 15 years Llewellyn has uncovered and compiled cutting-edge insider's information from actual drug manufacturers, dealers, and users from all over the world, guaranteeing up-to-date information.


Underground Steroids
Q: I got a 10ml bottle of testosterone enanthate from Rock Labs. It contains 250mg/ml of steroid. Is this lab good? My dealer said it is a high quality underground steroid. What exactly does that mean?

A: I really cannot comment on the quality of Rock Labs, as I know nothing about the operation nor have tested any of their products. I can address in a very general sense this recent trend towards underground steroid manufacturing labs, however, and what this means for the consumer and marketplace. For those unfamiliar, an underground steroid lab is a secret illegal operation that makes steroids specifically for sale on the black market. Decades ago, the black market was fed almost exclusively with products diverted from legitimate sources, such as doctors, pharmacies, veterinarians, and medicine wholesalers. We are talking the 1960’s and 70’s, a time when demand was growing but still mainly isolated to competitive athletics. Strong criminal laws were not in place that really prevented such diversion, and as a result, the steroid buying public had ready access to quality (clean) pharmaceuticals. Boy, times have changed, and not for the better.

A counterfeit market exploded in the late 1980’s and 1990’s, due to growing demand for steroids and shrinking supplies. Laws were being passed that made it much more difficult to divert these drugs to the black market in bulk. Some dealers were importing drugs to help fill the gap, but this supply chain was never sufficient. The counterfeit market has grown at a fast pace ever since. The black market has continued to evolve over the years into a monstrous industry filled with illicitly produced steroids, often of dubious quality. With this, a new breed of drug has emerged called the “Underground Steroid”. These products aren’t copies of real pharmaceutical brands, but are new brands, openly known to be from underground companies. Twenty years ago these would have generally all been considered counterfeits, but today underground labs are a new principle source for steroids on the black market, and are accepted by many buyers. These underground companies are basically unlicensed renegade manufacturers, making the drugs that the pharmaceutical industry (for the most part) wants to restrict from athletes. To some they are heroes, while to others they are unscrupulous profiteers.

It has become commonplace now that steroid dealing in many areas has taken on an underground home-manufacturing model. In this case a dealer buys a kilo or two of raw steroid powder from an overseas source, and makes his/her own product with it. You basically just need a scale, some empty vials, oil & alcohol for mixing, a hand crimpier to seal the bottles, and a few syringe filters to clean up the product a bit. A small hand-capping machine can be used to make orals. Add a laser printer to run labels and you have a fully functional underground steroid production facility right at your kitchen table. You can run a few hundred bottles of this or that, and turn an amazing profit on a fairly small investment. The materials to do this are readily available, and the number of such labs in operation these days is staggering. In fact, these products may presently be close to holding a majority of the marketplace.

Underground steroids made as described above are cheap and extremely common to find right now. They are abundant in almost every corner of the market, especially in the United States and Canada. It must be emphasized, however, that underground steroids can also be unsterile, impure, and dangerous. Clearly they are not coming from licensed and monitored pharmaceutical facilities. This is something far different. To begin with, the quality of material used to make these drugs is often at issue, which may come from non-pharmaceutical origins and be of a low grade. This may include notable heavy metals contamination, or the presence of a host of other unwanted impurities. The handling and packaging of the drugs is also being done under far less than sterile conditions, making the possibility of biological contamination in processing notable. That is not to mention the simple chance for mistakes when drugs are being made under such conditions. All this raises serious health concerns with the use of “Underground Gear”.

That is not to say all underground products are bad. There are many larger (and better run) operations than I have described above. Some actually contract real drug manufacturing facilities in other countries to make their products, and make every attempt to assure they are selling clean and sterile steroids. Some are pharmaceutical quality, no doubt. But these operations are smaller in number that the vast base of home-production businesses, so it is a “buyer beware” market today. While I wouldn’t say that all underground drugs absolutely must be avoided, I would suggest that you stick to legitimate pharmaceutical products unless you are absolutely sure that what you are buying is a clean quality drug. Can you say that you know that for certain of Rock Labs? It doesn’t sound like it based on your question, and on that note I’d probably suggest avoiding it.

Steroid or Non-Steroid Bridge?
Q: What do you think of using a mild steroid like Anavar to bridge between cycles? Is this a good idea to maintain mass between my normal cycles? If so, how much should I use?

A: There are many issues with “bridging” that should make the average person think twice about it. For starters, every anabolic steroid known to man will suppress testosterone production when used in doses sufficient to promote muscle gain. Studies have confirmed notable testosterone suppression with therapeutic doses of oxandrolone, so you are S.O.L. if a recovery bridge with Anavar is what you (like many) were hoping for. The next issue is the simple and more general fact that you are not going off steroids with a steroid bridge, and are potentially exacerbating the negative health aspects of their use, such their effects on serum lipids and cardiovascular disease risk. If you are spending your entire year going from strong cycle to lesser oral (Anavar) cycle, you are undoubtedly always going to be negatively altering your lipids (orals tend to be particularly harsh here, in fact). You may be putting yourself in some notable risk as the years progress. You need to remember that the whole point of cycling is to minimize the negative health risks of steroid use. The fact that these drugs have potential risks really cannot be disputed, just addressed intelligently. Bridging may be a very unhealthful way of sustaining these risks indefinitely, instead of mitigating them with off time. Don’t bridge with steroids!

Non-Steroidal Bridging

If you want an optimal “off cycle” program, you really should look at non-hormonal anabolic agents and/or supplements instead of anabolic steroids. For example, I know many guys that like to go off steroids and onto a cycle of Human Growth Hormone or IGF-1. Many others use this time to undertake a detailed program of dietary supplements. I’ve often recommended a 50-60 day stack of Creatine (3-5 grams per day) and Arachidonic acid (X-Factor™; 750-1000mg daily) for this purpose, which are both very effective natural muscle-building supplements. Truth be told, a number of professional athletes I know are using this combination between cycles/during testing periods right now with excellent results. Post cycle, these supplements can do an excellent job of helping you maintain the hard work you’ve put into your physique while on cycle. They also make an excellent non-hormonal anabolic stack in general.

A branched chain amino acid (BCAA) product might not hurt during your off-cycle time either, as recovery may be slowed compared to what you were used to on-cycle. It should help you recover faster and get more out of your workouts. A fish oil supplement might also be a good idea to help balance your lipid and triglyceride levels, which remember were likely altered for the negative during your steroid cycles. Off-cycle may also be a good time to invest in some of the other general health promoting vitamins and herbs etc. that may be fond of taking. The bottom line is, your off time is supposed to be “off time” for a reason. This is the time to let your body get back to its natural state of hormonal balance, and for you to enjoy a period where you are not using steroids and perhaps placing certain strains on your health. Take advantage of this time and use it for what its worth – keeping you healthy and happy.

Sore from Enanthate
Q: I’ve been getting very sore from testosterone enanthate injections. I’ve also had a fever two times for a couple of days after my shot. It is the first time I have used the drug. I’ve only tried Deca and oral steroids before. Is it normal? I am actually planning to stop my cycle short because of it. It is just too uncomfortable.

A: Soreness, fever, and tissue sensitivity are possible reactions to some steroid injections, and may be caused by a number of things. You never made any reference to the exact kind of testosterone enanthate you are using, so it does limit my ability to answer you to some degree. Were it a product from an underground lab, for example, I might suggest that the sterility or cleanliness of the product may be in question. Your body could be reacting to the presence of some irritant or toxin with a normal immune response, which could include the symptoms you described. The underground product may also be unusually high in benzyl alcohol, perhaps to facilitate a greater steroid concentration per milliliter or as a way of trying to assure the sterility of the solution. This is a common issue with “homegrown’ steroids, which are not carefully assembled under conditions that would ensure the proper amounts (and sterility) of all ingredients (carriers, anti-microbial agents, steroids, etc.). More fundamentally, you may be reacting to the use of enanthoic acid (enanthate) as the ester for testosterone. Carboxylic acid esters like this can be irritating to the body, especially the shorter chain ones. Enanthate is fairly long and well tolerated by most users, but even so a small percentage of patients do react to injections with the symptoms you described.


In a clinical setting, the type of reaction you are experiencing would be cause to change the method of therapy. It is clearly an unwanted adverse effect, and not something you should have to endure. You want the benefits of the drug without discomfort or adverse effects, the central focus in clinical medicine when it comes to the development of new androgen replacement therapies. If it is the enanthate ester itself that is causing the problem, an easy solution is to switch to a more comfortable ester. Testosterone cypionate is a common substitute for testosterone enanthate when this occurs, and in fact appears to be more popularly used in U.S. medicine. If you are using an underground or counterfeit product, the problem may be the same, or it may be something of greater concern. I always advise against the use of underground gear, and would certainly tell you to stop using it if that is the case. There would be no way to know for sure what is going on, of course, unless you had access to an American prescription testosterone enanthate product, which would eliminate the factors associated with underground manufacturing. Either way, I wish you luck, and hope you have a more comfortable cycle in the future should you decide to try again.

Dianabol Taste Test
Q: I’ve had two different dbols before, and both pills tasted very bitter. I have a new one that tastes very different, kind of bland. Did I get a fake? Does Dianabol taste bitter?

A: I’ve heard different “taste testing” strategies for identifying steroids before. I must confess that I’ve never given the concept a great deal of time. That is to say, I have never made any systematic examination of the different tastes of pure steroid chemicals, so I’d have little reference point to start from when it comes to evaluating their tastes as part of a blended compound. I can give you this little bit of information, however, which will hopefully put the whole thing into perspective. Dianabol usually comes as a 5mg tablet, meaning there are 5 milligrams of active drug in it. A typical tablet contains a whole lot more material than 5 milligrams. In fact, it is likely to contain 20 times that amount or more in the form if different binders, fillers, and perhaps coloring agents. Any combination of these materials may have different properties when it comes to taste. It is highly unlikely that even the most trained taste buds will be able to notice such a tiny amount of Dianabol next to an abundance (and variety) of other materials. In my opinion, this just isn’t a viable option for determining if you have a real drug or not. You are much better off examining the packaging of the product very closely, and comparing it to known legitimate products. You should make much more progress here. If you are buying an underground item, however, you are kind of on your own without some type of lab analysis.

Traveling with Gear
Q: I have a script for testosterone cypionate from my doctor. I need to fly next week to LA and will be away when my injection is scheduled. Do you know if I can I take syringes and steroids with me on the plane?

A: First, I am not an expert on the policies of the FAA, so I suggest you don’t do anything without checking with the airline you plan to travel with first. I wouldn’t want to misdirect you just to get a letter next week about your nightmare in the airport and my crappy advice. I am sure you can find all the policies online or with a quick phone call. I will tell you what I know, however, but please take the previous disclaimer to heart. You mentioned you had a valid prescription for the drug, so there should logically be no issues traveling with it. You have every right to travel with your medication so long as it is properly labeled as such, especially within U.S. borders where your prescription will always be recognized. It is perfectly legal to travel on a plane with syringes as well so long as they are accompanied by injectable medication. Depending on the airline, you can likely even take them on the plane in a carry-on bag. Some, however, may require that they be stored with your checked baggage, as the equipment is not essential to your health during travel. Again, check with your carrier first. At the very least, it should be no issue to put them together with the labeled vial of prescription testosterone and tuck them in a safe spot in the middle of your clothes. Remember, your bags might not be gingerly handled the entire time they are out of your sight. That is probably the issue you should be worrying about more. Good luck and travel safe.

World-renowned anabolic authority, William Llewellyn has written and rewritten the definitive book on steroids. His series of ANABOLICS books have become the most trusted steroid and performance drug reference book of its kind. For over 15 years Llewellyn has uncovered and compiled cutting-edge insider's information from actual drug manufacturers, dealers, and users from all over the world, guaranteeing up-to-date information.


Growth Hormone (GH) for Post Cycle Therapy (PCT)?

Q: What are your thoughts of using growth hormone during PCT?

A: I think it is certainly a viable option, though the main focus is preserving lean body mass and not increasing the return to homeostasis with androgen production. The main support for this use of GH came from a study published in 2001, in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism (volume 86 number 5, pp 2211-19). It was a study done to examine if growth hormone or IGF-1 could counter the catabolic effects of hypogonadism (low testosterone levels). The investigation involved a group of 13 healthy subjects with a mean age of 22 years. The subjects were given a GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone) analog, which caused their bodies to shut down the normal production of testosterone. After 6 weeks from reaching baseline levels they were given either GH or IGF-1, to see if the drugs would prevent the catabolism normally associated with low testosterone levels. Final measures were taken 10 weeks from the start of the study.

The study demonstrated that both IGF-1 and growth hormone were able to preserve protein synthesis rates, even during a period of severe androgen deprivation. The subjects, likewise, did not lose a statistically significant amount of fat free mass/muscle tissue, in contrary to what is documented with hypogonadism alone. While it is far from conclusive evidence GH or IGF-1 should become integral to every steroid user’s PCT program, it certainly lends a lot of support for the idea of using one of these drugs in this manner. Note, however, that the study did show that androgens were required for the full anabolic effects of Growth Hormone and IGF-1. In other words, GH/IGF-1 may help you maintain muscle mass when coming off steroids, but you will get your most growth from the drugs if they are taken when androgen levels are normal or even elevated.

No More Spot Injections?
Q: I listened to your lecture at the Lord’s Cricket Ground in London. In it you said that you do not recommend spot injections. How come? I’ve injected in my biceps, triceps, and calves without problems. Are you going soft on us?

A: No, I don’t think I am. Maybe it could be said I am getting softer to some degree. I have been thinking more of health than I did in my 20’s. At that time in your life you tend to feel indestructible. I’m in my 30’s now, and more in touch with the fragility of life I guess. I’d never do today some of the things I did when I was 24 (2000mg of testosterone in one week, what the hell was I thinking?) So I guess I am trying to preach a message of steroid conservatism a bit more than I used to. But my recommendation in the London Lord’s lecture was not really based solely on that. It was more a function of my role in the conference. To give you some background, I was invited to speak with many of the great people that run and work in the needle exchange clinics throughout the UK. My goal was to not only educate the group, but to provide a strategy for what they term “harm reduction”.

Harm reduction is a concept that addresses the fact the people are using illegal drugs, and tries to minimize the negative impact of their use instead of simply judging the user. That is the function of these clinics. Some may say they facilitate drug use (often IV narcotics) by supplying free needles and syringes to users. Others, and I am one of them, believe this is far outweighed by the health protecting benefits of clean needles and free counseling. As far as steroids are concerned, I tried to provide some simple guidelines for reducing the health risks associated with their use for the average person. The cornerstone of this was the use of reasonable doses, limited administration of toxic oral steroids, regular checkups of health during and post cycle, and finding legitimate (as opposed to underground or counterfeit) drugs.

My recommendation for avoiding spot injections was simply another part of “harm reduction”. After all, I think few people will deny that there is a greater chance for injection error when trying to navigate the smaller muscle groups as opposed to the glutes and thighs, the recognized universal injection points for slow acting oil-based (depot) injections. Health issues due to local (small muscle) injections are not extremely uncommon. You hear them all the time. At the same time, many people have the experience and skill to run numerous cycles with many repeat injections into small muscles with no issue. My advice was to be applied to everyone that comes through the doors. Those that know what they are doing and have every intention of spot injecting will probably just ignore it. For those that are inexperienced, however, I definitely still believe that “spot” injections should be left for a much later time.

Long-term Oral Steroid Cycles?
Q: I’ve been on and off steroids for years. I respond well to them even at pretty low doses (300-600mg/week), but always crash afterwards no matter what I do. Lately I’ve been trying something different. For the past 12 weeks I’ve been taking 100mg of orals (Winstrol, Dianabol, Anadrol) per week, and have slowly been gaining size (about 5 pounds of lean mass) and strength. I am hoping this will produce more permanent gains; less estrogen conversion to worry about and it shouldn’t suppress my natural testosterone. Do you have any knowledge of the efficacy of low-dose long-term use of anabolics?

A: Given that most of the oral anabolics have less estrogenicity than the standard of reference (testosterone), you should find that size is better maintained at the conclusion of a cycle compared to injectable testosterones, as you are holding, and as a result will be excreting, less water weight. When all is said and done, you’ll seem to hold more of the weight you gained on oral anabolics simply because more of what you gained was quality muscle (not water bulk) in the first place. Anadrol is an exception among your list as it is highly estrogenic. Given the doses you are using, however, I suspect you will not notice this trait much, and (in line with what you stated) should be noticing some modest but measurable gains in strength and lean muscle mass. In the end you’ll probably gain more lean mass on a formidable dose of testosterone, but again, the difference between your on-cycle bulk weight and your off-cycle retained mass weight will be more noticeable on a cycle like this too.

If my math is correct, you are taking about 15 milligrams of oral anabolics per day. I don’t want you to be mistaken into thinking this is a “very low” dose. O.K., by some of the standards of excess today it may be considered low, but in a clinical sense it most certainly is not. Winstrol is given at a dose of 6 milligrams per day or less most commonly. When Dianabol was widely prescribed in the U.S., the common application was 5 milligrams per day. Aside from Anadrol, the doses you are taking are outside of the therapeutic range, and enough to present significant gains in lean tissue, as you have noticed. In fact, during the 1960’s and ‘70s fifteen milligrams per day was a common dose for athletes and bodybuilders. This level of use is also more than sufficient to suppress natural testosterone production, so you still going to have to deal with some type of crash at the conclusion of this cycle, even if it is less pronounced due to less water retention. As such, a proper PCT (Post-Cycle Therapy) program is probably a good idea to look at.

The main concern I have with this practice is the fact that you are applying a sufficient dose of c-17 alpha alkylated oral steroids each day, and it is continuing for a significant amount of time. The usual cutoff point is 6-8 weeks. Immediately, I would question what your serum lipids are doing. How are you HDL (good) and LDL (bad) cholesterol levels responding to this cycle? As you may know, oral c-17 alpha alkylated steroids present much more toxicity to the body than injectable testosterones (and related non-alkylated steroids). They tend to greatly shift the HDL:LDL balance in an unfavorable direction (increasing the risk of cardiovascular disease), and place some strain on the liver. While I wouldn’t be go so far as to say this type of practice is outright dangerous to your immediate health, I would most certainly recommend that you take caution. With any oral cycle, especially one going on for a prolonged period of time, you should be getting periodic checks on your lipids, liver enzymes, blood pressure, and general markers of health. If you find the drugs are placing too much strain on your body, they probably aren’t worth it. If you find such is true in your situation, you’d likely be much better off looking back at the old standby injectables like testosterone and nandrolone, which present no significant liver stress and have a much lower negative effect on serum lipids – crash and water retention be damned.

Is Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) Really Necessary?
Q: OK, I have been on test cyp for about 6-7 months now. I am going to try to come off. I AM NOT GOING TO PCT, unless can be avoided. Tell me why I should, and what to expect, and look out for, IN A NUTSHELL!!! …Why it is I should actually have to do this, instead of just blindly across the board telling everyone to "do their PCT". I am truly concerned about taking these drugs, and I am not convinced that my particular case will require.

A: The need for PCT (especially following longer cycles) is one of those things that, at least in my opinion, were established through anecdotal observations long before we had studies to look at “proving” it is right. The “post cycle crash” is something every steroid user had to historically deal with. As the cycles dragged on, most experienced steroid users would develop significant stories of crash and muscle loss. This is one of the reasons many steroid users would simply “stay on”. The ups and downs of steroid use can be a bitch, to put it frankly.

But as bodybuilders experimented more and more with other drugs, they began to develop PCT (Post-Cycle Therapy) approaches to restoring hormones more quickly based on theoretical models of what should happen with certain ancillary drugs and our bodies post cycle. Key to this became the use of HCG, Nolvadex, and Clomid, three drugs known to stimulate increased testosterone production in men. As the “early and less informed days” of the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s gave way to the 90’s and on, more people learned of these drugs, and began experimenting and reporting their own results. Consistently, it seemed that using these drugs post cycle was a big help.

But herein lies your dilemma. How do we know these drugs really work for PCT beyond unproven personal reports (which in the science world usually aren’t held in high regard)? While I know of no definitive placebo-controlled study proving a proper PCT program will work, I can give you two very quick bits of evidence that I feel strongly support what bodybuilders have long known – these drugs do help, at least somewhat, and at least most of the time.

Studies involving the use of fairly moderate doses of testosterone enanthate (250mg pre week if I recall correctly) showed a very long recovery window after use. The post-cycle androgen-deficient state lasted for as long as 4-6 months before pre-treated testosterone levels were restored. This is a long time to wait for a balanced endocrine system to return, and logically is not going to be a good stretch for maintaining muscle mass.
One abstract thus far has been presented discussing the results of a 45-day PCT program following steroid use. It is based on the combined/stepped use of HCG, Nolvadex, and Clomid. All subjects noticed a return to pretreated androgen levels by the end of the 45 day treatment with these drugs, which is significantly shorter time frame than the recovery window noticed with testosterone enanthate without PCT.
By the way, the abstract above is to my knowledge the only study ever conducted on a PCT program following steroid use. Many claim to have developed the “Ultimate PCT Program”, but such drug plans are based entirely on theories about what “should” work. For what it is worth, I recommend avoiding such theories, and instead paying attention to the one PCT program that has actually been studied by physicians (with seemingly good success I might add). Bottom line, for me the data and reports are strong enough to take a program like this seriously. Mind you, we are not talking about 100% muscle retention by any means. But the prospect of a 45-day recovery window is logically a lot more appealing than a 6-month window, even if we can never accurately quantify the end difference between both approaches.

The Long Jack Study? Long-term TRT.
Q: In your recent "Llewellyn on Steroids #7" you say "It is of note that Longjack was recently tested, and proven to increase androgen levels in men. But the increases were within the normal range, not supraphysiological (in excess of normal)". I can't seem to find any studies done on humans. Do you know where I can find them?

Also, if someone were considering going on a TRT program just to get their T levels up to the mid to top of normal range, is this something that they should consider trying first before using Exogenous Testosterone? And if so, what kind of dosage would be appropriate?

A: To answer the first part of your question, below is part of the abstract discussing Long Jack supplementation. As you can see, the supplement has a modest but measurable effect on cortisol and testosterone levels, and seems to support its use in this context. The full abstract can be found in the JIISN conference report at the following link: http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/site/pdf/JISSN-3-1-S1-29-06.pdf

“Subjects consumed 100mg of E (N = 15) or a look-alike placebo (P, N = 15) approximately 30 minutes prior to endurance exercise. Cortisol levels were 32.3% lower in E compared to P (0.552+0.665 versus 0.816+0.775 ug/dL, P < 0.05). Testosterone levels were 16.4% higher in E compared to P (86.72+40.90 versus 72.47+33.77 pg/mL, P < 0.05). These results suggest that Eurycoma longifolia extract may help to maintain normal levels of cortisol (low) and testosterone (high) and thus promotean overall “anabolic” hormonal state (versus a “catabolic” state characterized by elevated cortisol and suppressed testosterone) during intense endurance exercise.”

With that said, what direction you should take your personal medical/supplementation is going to be a very individual choice. For what it is worth I will give you my .02. I think that there are many viable supplements that can help someone increase their total and free testosterone levels. In the short term, these appear to offer some measurable value to many individuals. What benefits and risks these may have in the long term, especially with regard to extended therapy to increase androgen levels, however, remains to be seen. There have been no long-term studies in this regard with any testosterone boosting supplements. But such is the nature of progress, especially in the realm of supplementation, which garners far less profits and research dollars than the pharmaceutical industry.

For what it is worth, if it was me, and I were considering my long term options, I’d probably consider basic testosterone replacement therapy. Although still growing, this area of medicine has seen extensive study. We have the long-term studies, and pretty much know exactly what we are getting with testosterone therapy. After all, you are putting into your body the same exact hormone it used to make ample levels of in youth. So in this regard, we know the hormone and how it works. Furthermore, we have little unanswered questions about the mechanism in which this hormone is being elevated. We’re simply supplying more of it with a gel, patch, injection, etc. It may very well be that some of these supplements turn out to be great long-term options for increasing androgen levels as we age, but we simply don’t know (enough) yet to make definitive judgments and recommendations.

Proviron for PCT?
Q: I have read mixed opinions on whether PROVIRON (mesterolone) can be used effectively to assist in post cycle recovery, or whether it has a negative effect on the recovery of the HPTA. If it can be used at what dosage and duration would you recommend?

A: You are probably going to continue to get mixed views on this, due to the fact that no study has ever been done to my knowledge evaluating the effect that Proviron will have during the post-cycle recovery window, and at what dose said effect is established. Whatever is being said about it in this regard is stemming from studies on men with intact hormonal systems. In this area, we can say with certainty that the drug has a weak effect on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis. It will suppress androgen levels, but its weak general effect makes it comparably much milder than most steroids in this regard. Usually any effect it does have is not deemed significant in these studies. But again, these studies involve an intact hormonal axis, with normal levels of testosterone already being produced. What we are trying to determine here is if this weak effect is enough to hinder hormonal recovery following steroid use. The simple answer is, “We don’t know”.

I can tell you what makes sense to me. First, Proviron is a weak steroid in general, with a poor ability to dodge enzymes in skeletal muscle that prevent it from having a strong effect here. So with regard to the main issue of PCT, namely restoring androgen action in muscle tissue as quickly as possible so as to maintain optimal levels of activity and muscle mass, it is going to offer little value as a supplement. It simply isn’t strong enough as an anabolic to appreciably build muscle mass, and on the same note it isn’t going to have enough effect here to inhibit muscle catabolism in the face of suppressed testosterone. At least, that has been my experience and observations. Any effect it seems to have post-cycle is more mental; energy, sense of well being, libido – these may all be positively effected by Proviron during periods of low androgenicity.

But the main question still remains. What will it do to recovery? Again, since science doesn’t know, nobody can say for sure how much it will negatively affect recovery, if at all. We do know for sure that, at the very least, it certainly isn’t going to help hasten recovery. Whatever mild suppressive effect it might turn out to have, therefore, needs to be taken into consideration before use. In my personal opinion, I think the potential for interference (slowed recovery period) here outweighs any value it may have on libido, etc. But again, you are going to get many different opinions. What you feel is right for yourself may differ from what someone else is telling you. For my .02, I wouldn’t bother with it.

Nice Post Chris250, where as I do not believe in EVERYTHING HE HAS TO SAY, I think that Newbs would gain a lot from listening to what he has to say in the beginning but seriously Chris, once you reach our expertise (size), experience.. his information becomes .. well.. Exempt.

We start writing our own books. If you know what I mean...

This is but ONE MAN, who is educated Yes, but still One Man's Opinion on AAS use and it's effects...

But yes some very informative info to someone just starting out..

Deuce,

Yeah some of his stuff is outdated...I got most of these from the old Meso board...its all probably 3-5 years old..but to newbie's I think this is still some decent info...as for guys that want to get super human size then you have to take it to a whole different level..I wish someone would be honest enough to just come out and say what it needs to take to be pro size...

Well as you know, it's part of my job to consult with Pros.. I can't give out names and such, but I know a lot more than most people do.. and well, how do I say this without saying it the wrong way...

Ok, You know what.. I am gonna send you a PM... that way... well. I don't reveal publicly things I shouldn't be..

Chris250 said:

Llewellyn on Steroids #1 - Underground Steroids, Steroid Bridge?
by William Llewellyn
Author of Anabolics - Anabolic Steroid Reference Manual
World-renowned anabolic authority, William Llewellyn has written and rewritten the definitive book on steroids. His series of ANABOLICS books have become the most trusted steroid and performance drug reference book of its kind. For over 15 years Llewellyn has uncovered and compiled cutting-edge insider's information from actual drug manufacturers, dealers, and users from all over the world, guaranteeing up-to-date information.


Underground Steroids
Q: I got a 10ml bottle of testosterone enanthate from Rock Labs. It contains 250mg/ml of steroid. Is this lab good? My dealer said it is a high quality underground steroid. What exactly does that mean?

A: I really cannot comment on the quality of Rock Labs, as I know nothing about the operation nor have tested any of their products. I can address in a very general sense this recent trend towards underground steroid manufacturing labs, however, and what this means for the consumer and marketplace. For those unfamiliar, an underground steroid lab is a secret illegal operation that makes steroids specifically for sale on the black market. Decades ago, the black market was fed almost exclusively with products diverted from legitimate sources, such as doctors, pharmacies, veterinarians, and medicine wholesalers. We are talking the 1960’s and 70’s, a time when demand was growing but still mainly isolated to competitive athletics. Strong criminal laws were not in place that really prevented such diversion, and as a result, the steroid buying public had ready access to quality (clean) pharmaceuticals. Boy, times have changed, and not for the better.

A counterfeit market exploded in the late 1980’s and 1990’s, due to growing demand for steroids and shrinking supplies. Laws were being passed that made it much more difficult to divert these drugs to the black market in bulk. Some dealers were importing drugs to help fill the gap, but this supply chain was never sufficient. The counterfeit market has grown at a fast pace ever since. The black market has continued to evolve over the years into a monstrous industry filled with illicitly produced steroids, often of dubious quality. With this, a new breed of drug has emerged called the “Underground Steroid”. These products aren’t copies of real pharmaceutical brands, but are new brands, openly known to be from underground companies. Twenty years ago these would have generally all been considered counterfeits, but today underground labs are a new principle source for steroids on the black market, and are accepted by many buyers. These underground companies are basically unlicensed renegade manufacturers, making the drugs that the pharmaceutical industry (for the most part) wants to restrict from athletes. To some they are heroes, while to others they are unscrupulous profiteers.

It has become commonplace now that steroid dealing in many areas has taken on an underground home-manufacturing model. In this case a dealer buys a kilo or two of raw steroid powder from an overseas source, and makes his/her own product with it. You basically just need a scale, some empty vials, oil & alcohol for mixing, a hand crimpier to seal the bottles, and a few syringe filters to clean up the product a bit. A small hand-capping machine can be used to make orals. Add a laser printer to run labels and you have a fully functional underground steroid production facility right at your kitchen table. You can run a few hundred bottles of this or that, and turn an amazing profit on a fairly small investment. The materials to do this are readily available, and the number of such labs in operation these days is staggering. In fact, these products may presently be close to holding a majority of the marketplace.

Underground steroids made as described above are cheap and extremely common to find right now. They are abundant in almost every corner of the market, especially in the United States and Canada. It must be emphasized, however, that underground steroids can also be unsterile, impure, and dangerous. Clearly they are not coming from licensed and monitored pharmaceutical facilities. This is something far different. To begin with, the quality of material used to make these drugs is often at issue, which may come from non-pharmaceutical origins and be of a low grade. This may include notable heavy metals contamination, or the presence of a host of other unwanted impurities. The handling and packaging of the drugs is also being done under far less than sterile conditions, making the possibility of biological contamination in processing notable. That is not to mention the simple chance for mistakes when drugs are being made under such conditions. All this raises serious health concerns with the use of “Underground Gear”.

That is not to say all underground products are bad. There are many larger (and better run) operations than I have described above. Some actually contract real drug manufacturing facilities in other countries to make their products, and make every attempt to assure they are selling clean and sterile steroids. Some are pharmaceutical quality, no doubt. But these operations are smaller in number that the vast base of home-production businesses, so it is a “buyer beware” market today. While I wouldn’t say that all underground drugs absolutely must be avoided, I would suggest that you stick to legitimate pharmaceutical products unless you are absolutely sure that what you are buying is a clean quality drug. Can you say that you know that for certain of Rock Labs? It doesn’t sound like it based on your question, and on that note I’d probably suggest avoiding it.

Steroid or Non-Steroid Bridge?
Q: What do you think of using a mild steroid like Anavar to bridge between cycles? Is this a good idea to maintain mass between my normal cycles? If so, how much should I use?

A: There are many issues with “bridging” that should make the average person think twice about it. For starters, every anabolic steroid known to man will suppress testosterone production when used in doses sufficient to promote muscle gain. Studies have confirmed notable testosterone suppression with therapeutic doses of oxandrolone, so you are S.O.L. if a recovery bridge with Anavar is what you (like many) were hoping for. The next issue is the simple and more general fact that you are not going off steroids with a steroid bridge, and are potentially exacerbating the negative health aspects of their use, such their effects on serum lipids and cardiovascular disease risk. If you are spending your entire year going from strong cycle to lesser oral (Anavar) cycle, you are undoubtedly always going to be negatively altering your lipids (orals tend to be particularly harsh here, in fact). You may be putting yourself in some notable risk as the years progress. You need to remember that the whole point of cycling is to minimize the negative health risks of steroid use. The fact that these drugs have potential risks really cannot be disputed, just addressed intelligently. Bridging may be a very unhealthful way of sustaining these risks indefinitely, instead of mitigating them with off time. Don’t bridge with steroids!

Non-Steroidal Bridging

If you want an optimal “off cycle” program, you really should look at non-hormonal anabolic agents and/or supplements instead of anabolic steroids. For example, I know many guys that like to go off steroids and onto a cycle of Human Growth Hormone or IGF-1. Many others use this time to undertake a detailed program of dietary supplements. I’ve often recommended a 50-60 day stack of Creatine (3-5 grams per day) and Arachidonic acid (X-Factor™; 750-1000mg daily) for this purpose, which are both very effective natural muscle-building supplements. Truth be told, a number of professional athletes I know are using this combination between cycles/during testing periods right now with excellent results. Post cycle, these supplements can do an excellent job of helping you maintain the hard work you’ve put into your physique while on cycle. They also make an excellent non-hormonal anabolic stack in general.

A branched chain amino acid (BCAA) product might not hurt during your off-cycle time either, as recovery may be slowed compared to what you were used to on-cycle. It should help you recover faster and get more out of your workouts. A fish oil supplement might also be a good idea to help balance your lipid and triglyceride levels, which remember were likely altered for the negative during your steroid cycles. Off-cycle may also be a good time to invest in some of the other general health promoting vitamins and herbs etc. that may be fond of taking. The bottom line is, your off time is supposed to be “off time” for a reason. This is the time to let your body get back to its natural state of hormonal balance, and for you to enjoy a period where you are not using steroids and perhaps placing certain strains on your health. Take advantage of this time and use it for what its worth – keeping you healthy and happy.

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I got most of Llewellyns books, always a decent read

Glad I just found this thread!!! Solid for all newbies to advanced bodybuilders!

Excellent posts, thanks!!