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08-15-2016, 10:46 AM #1
Sub Q TRT - 20% better results???
Get 20% Better Results From Testosterone
Subcutaneous TRT
by TC Luoma | 08/09/16
Tags: Testosterone Optimization
Pharma
20 Percent More Bang
When Nation first launched way back in 1998, getting your doctor to prescribe testosterone to you was tricky. Luckily most docs are up to speed these days on testosterone-replacement therapy (TRT). Heck, you can even find "low T" centers at your local strip mall and see commercials for testosterone in prime time.
Today you have the choice of injections, gels, creams, or pellets in treating low T. However, testosterone injections give you the most bang for your buck. And now, a new method may give you 20% extra bang for the very same buck. It's called subcutaneous or "subQ" injection.
Inject Into Fat, Not MuscleIf you've been on TRT for any length of time, it's likely your glutes are so scarred up from years of intramuscular (IM) injections that they're starting to resemble a piece of leftover gristle from the Sunday pot roast.
It's also quite likely those intramuscular injections are causing the occasional painful inflammatory response, in addition to needlessly spiking your estrogen levels. The safer, simpler, and perhaps even more effective way to administer testosterone is into the fatty layer just under the skin, otherwise known as a subcutaneous injection.
Dr. John Crisler, of the All Things Male Center for Health, has played a huge role in popularizing the subQ method.
Dr. John Crisler, SubQ Injection Demonstration
- Going under the skin saves you from approximately 500 potentially damaging intramuscular injections every decade.
- Injecting your testosterone subcutaneously involves the use of a small gauge needle (25 gauge half-inch, or 26 gauge 3/8 inch if you're very lean), thus making it feasible to give yourself two injections per week, which allows for a more even and natural testosterone profile.
- Since you're injecting two times a week, the testosterone is more smoothly metabolized and might even bring estrogen levels down.
- Dr. Crisler believes this method gives you more bang for your testosterone buck. He says that 80 mg of subQ testosterone has the effect of a 100 mg of testosterone administered intramuscularly.
- You can use the same needle to fill your syringe and administer the dose.
- Since there's no danger of puncturing a vein, there's no need to aspirate when you go subQ.
- Buy yourself some 25 gauge 5/8-inch needles or 26 gauge 3/8-inch needles (if you're very lean) and some 1 cc syringes. There are several diabetes care websites that ship direct to the customer. If you're getting them from your pharmacy, you can ask for tuberculin (TB) syringes that are designed for small subcutaneous doses and make it easy to inject oily testosterone.
- Split your normal weekly dosage into two equal doses. In other words, if you normally inject 200 mg. IM, inject 100 mg. twice a week. If your doctor has you using 100 mg. weekly, inject 50 mg. on Wednesday and 50 mg. Saturday for example.
- Wipe the top of the bottle of testosterone ester with an alcohol swab as you would for IM administration.
- Draw up the testosterone in the pre-determined dosage and simply "dart" the needle into the fat pad on your abdomen, the "love handles," or buttocks. Do not try to squeeze or pinch the fatty area. The short needle will insure the magic juice isn't entering muscle tissue. Inject slowly.
- Feel awesome.
Last edited by Iron Game; 08-15-2016 at 11:07 AM. Reason: Links to other forum edited
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08-15-2016, 10:57 AM #2
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I'd like to hear more people comment on this. This goes against what I was taught. IGF maybe, but not test.
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08-15-2016, 10:59 AM #3
20% slower maybe...Or 20% more painful (more like 200%)
True sub q injections BURN like a mofo.thudgens96 liked this post
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08-15-2016, 11:01 AM #4
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I do subq now and just got blood taken this morning.
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08-15-2016, 11:04 AM #5
Also, logic just screams to me that more T would aromatize if it was in the fatty tissue. Since that is where aromatization usually occurs. Your highest concentration of aromatase is in the fatty tissues.
Also sub Q injections absorb much slower, thus stretching the dose, and lowering the peak amount.
Also 80mg of T NEVER can equal 100mg of T. 80mg =80mg , 100=100. That statement alone is what stood out to me from a logic perspective.
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What size pin do you use and what angle do you go in? Does it burn? I am curious.
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08-15-2016, 11:07 AM #6
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Once in a while it will start to burn then goes right away. It does take a long time since I use a 29ga 1ml diabetic needed 5/16 length. I literally got blood drawn this morning and I can't wait for the results.
I had issues of sore.spots the day after at first but no longer get them since changing from .5 ml per injection to .25-.33ml per injection.
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08-15-2016, 11:15 AM #7
Good information...I would be interested in hearing about more trials
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08-15-2016, 11:16 AM #8
I just can't do it like that. I would feel like a pin cushion, lol.
I like to load it all up and let her rip one time!jimbosmith316 thanked for this postjimbosmith316, LeatherHead liked this post
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08-15-2016, 11:17 AM #9
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I kinda do feel like one lol
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08-15-2016, 11:19 AM #10jimbosmith316 thanked for this postjimbosmith316, Dean Destructo liked this post
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08-15-2016, 11:20 AM #11
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08-15-2016, 11:33 AM #12
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I feel like a pin cushion now, with almost daily sticks. Can't imagine breaking it down even further and have to give multiple pins every day.
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08-15-2016, 01:39 PM #13
sub q gives me lumps that last for weeks.. no thanks lol
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08-15-2016, 02:27 PM #14jimbosmith316, LeatherHead thanked for this postjimbosmith316, LeatherHead liked this post
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08-15-2016, 02:28 PM #15
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08-15-2016, 02:30 PM #16jimbosmith316 thanked for this postjimbosmith316 liked this post
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08-15-2016, 02:34 PM #17
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Just found this. The fact that subq injections do not seem to raise E2 levels more than IM injections (as you originally feared, Dr Crisler), is likely due to the fact that the ester (be it propionate, cypionate, enanthate) is mostly cleaved from the testosterone by esterase enzymes IN THE BLOODSTREAM. This means the testosterone, while sitting in the subq fatty tissue would still mostly have its ester attached. Thus, all of the aromatase sitting around in those adipose cells would be useless for converting the testosterone ester (in other words, the aromatase will convert testosterone (no ester) to estradiol (no ester), but will not convert testosterone cypionate to estradiol cypionate).
Once the testosterone ester is absorbed into the blood and the ester is cleaved off to release testosterone itself, then all is fair game whether it came from an IM source OR a subq source - ie: it may circulate and return to the adipose cells to then be converted to E, but this, in effect, removes the location of injection as a significant variable for affecting E levels. Since ester cleavage occurs primarily in the blood, the actual site of injection should have almost no DIRECT impact on E conversion, but may have an INDIRECT impact by way of differing pharmacodynamics of serum T levels in IM vs subq injections.
As an addendum to above, topical T preparations (non-esterified) are well known to disproportionately elevate DHT levels (as expected due to the 5 alpha reductase levels in the skin). Along these same lines, in theory although not always evident in practice, as these topical preparations are non-esterified and absorb and deposit in the fatty subq/adipose tissue as testosterone and not a testosterone ester, your concern for increased aromatization to E should theoretically be much more of a concern with the topicals..... topicals = TESTOSTERONE in the adipose tissue --> aromatization T to E. Subq injection = testosterone CYPIONATE/ESTER in the adipose tissue --> NO aromatization to E cypionate. No concern for aromatization until ester is cleaved in the blood and T (if or when) recirculates back to the adipose tissue
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08-15-2016, 04:07 PM #18
this is why I stopped. I also would get horrible bruising once every 10 shots or so.................Then on the positive side, it does tend to cut E issues and I can cut my dosages of nolva. It is easy as can be backloading then injecting 1/2cc 2xW.
I can go sometime a month with no lumps and no bruising and all is good. Works best for me in the winter when I am more covered up!!jimbosmith316 thanked for this postjimbosmith316 liked this post
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08-15-2016, 06:08 PM #19
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This can only be for true trt. Can you imagine taking a gram like that or even split up you would really be a pin cushion
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08-15-2016, 06:15 PM #20
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08-15-2016, 06:49 PM #21
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08-15-2016, 06:53 PM #22
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08-15-2016, 07:01 PM #23
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08-15-2016, 07:03 PM #24
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08-16-2016, 12:37 PM #25
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80 mg's of T would have to equal to a gram of T for it to be worth my time doing sub q injections just due to the damn knots that I get. I get these knots from IGF1 and MT2 which are like the smallest amounts, I couldn't imagine how bad it would be with even 1/4cc of Test Enanthate. No thanks.
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08-17-2016, 08:27 AM #26jimbosmith316, trekrider215 thanked for this postjimbosmith316, trekrider215 liked this post
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08-19-2016, 04:25 PM #27
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I just thouhjt about this and i think youre looking at it the wrong way. I think what it mwans is due to the delivery syem he thinks 80mgs sub q is possibly equal to 100mgs intramuscular. This does make sense. For instance if you pin 300 mgs of test versus a 600mg shot, it doesnt mean the 600mgs shot is going to produce twice the test levels in tne blood. Most likely it wont. The amount of actual free test or total test in the blood can be subject to a bunch of variables i think that was his way of saying an 80mg sub q shot would just produce higher vlood levels than that of intramusvular.
Sorry for my ttypinf my phone is acting up.jimbosmith316 thanked for this postjimbosmith316 liked this post
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08-22-2016, 03:21 PM #28
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08-23-2016, 07:32 AM #29
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The way I read the part about 80 = 100 is that the 2x per week rather than 1x per week is responsible for that. My doc told me something that supports this: he said if you double the frequency of injections, the rule of thumb is to reduce the total dosage by 40%.
That seems a little drastic to me intuitively, but he's pretty conservative. I can say for sure that last bloodwork was done after a month of 140mg/wk total, split into 80 and 60, serum test levels were very similar to what I've had at 180/wk single injections. So that supports the idea that 2x/wk injections = more mileage.
I'm talking IM njections; I get the nasty hard, bruised lumps from sub Q also. Tried it once with test and have tried it with igf-1 with same results.Last edited by EMW14; 08-23-2016 at 07:40 AM.
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09-13-2019, 04:57 PM #30
Subcutaneous Testosterone Injections vs Intramuscular Testosterone Injections on TRT
In this video I share research on Subcutaneous Testosterone Injections compared to Intramuscular Testosterone Injections. Sub Q Vs IM testosterone injections is a very debated topic in the Testosterone Replacement Therapy community. If you are on TRT or Hormone replacement therapy you should definitely watch this video and find out which is better, Subcutaneous Testosterone Injections or Intramuscular Testosterone Injections.
Links to studies
Female Studies
Serum Testosterone Concentrations Remain Stable Between Injections in Patients Receiving Subcutaneous Testosterone
Mens Studies
Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report. - PubMed - NCBI
Pharmacokinetic Profile of Subcutaneous Testosterone Enanthate Delivered via a Novel, Prefilled Single-Use Autoinjector: A Phase II Study. - PubMed - NCBI
Daily subcutaneous testosterone for management of testosterone deficiency