1. #1
    MuscleChemistry Registered Member Board Certified Psy.D

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    Default Did PCT, Test is Low

    I came off all gear (test/tren) about 4 months ago, did PCT, I was fine.
    But I did notice not great libido on cycle, and much worse off cycle, to the point that it completely crashed for several weeks after PCT before coming back up a tiny bit.
    I lost about 4kg (90kg on cycle, 86kg now) which has sustained because I eat the same diet.
    I am feeling extremely exhausted all the time to the point I'm sleeping 15 hours a day and missing work even now
    I feel like some stomach fat has come back also. Hair growth was obviously better on cycle but not bad off cycle.
    No other symptoms I can think of.

    I had blood work done and my test level is 'low' i.e. 6 when the normal range is 10-40.
    They tested thyroid and cortisol etc everything else was normal. So it could be I just have a low test level naturally?

    Strangely though, I hit PB's in the gym.
    I have ordered new test/tren/IGF coming this week. I am tempted to just jump back on cycle. But is this is the right thing to do?
    I am seeing an endocrinologist today also for advice, not sure if I should tell him I cycled because UK doctors tend to blame steroids for everything and will give the 'everything will be fine later' advice.
     

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    BigZ MC Site Admin Board Certified MD

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    Depending on how long you've run test cycles, you can really blunt your production of LH and FSH. This results in having low natural levels of testosterone. I've been on TRT for 20 years (started when I was 30), and when I'm tested, my levels of LH and FSH are 0 (zero)--literally. If I was to come off TRT, there would be no way for my body to produce testosterone at all. The older we get, the harder it will be for the HPTA axis to recover to normal. I've felt the same way when I had to come off when switching doctors (they like to start from baseline on their own). In all likelihood, you'll need to be on at least a low dose of TRT to get back to feeling normal.

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    Cycles I typically run for 16 weeks as its usually just test or test and tren.
    Thats what I thought, hence I've kept a test vile ready to go this week.
    I've done full blood work today, the endocrinologist said he will come to a diagnosis by Friday this week.
    Strange that strength didn't crash though despite low test?
     

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    Agree with Big Z.
    Get It Done!

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    BigZ MC Site Admin Board Certified MD

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopesanddreams View Post
    Cycles I typically run for 16 weeks as its usually just test or test and tren.
    Thats what I thought, hence I've kept a test vile ready to go this week.
    I've done full blood work today, the endocrinologist said he will come to a diagnosis by Friday this week.
    Strange that strength didn't crash though despite low test?
    You can feel tired but still have the strength to do your workout, they're different things. Only after being low for longer and muscles atrophy do you lose strength, and it sounds like you haven't been low for that long.

    Good luck with your doc!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigZ View Post
    You can feel tired but still have the strength to do your workout, they're different things. Only after being low for longer and muscles atrophy do you lose strength, and it sounds like you haven't been low for that long.

    Good luck with your doc!
    Strength as in I hit PB's on this low testosterone, when even when on cycle I wasn't hitting them. Weird. Maybe diet is better (I seem to feel better).
    This 'wipeout' happened after. They have taken all the blood work, will know tomorrow what is up.
     

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    My test results came back as sex hormones shut off, test is low and thyroid is overactive a bit. Cortisol, the P hormone and everything else was normal (not anemic, no diabetes etc).
    They are redoing blood work in 4 weeks, if test is low and sex hormones are shut off they will put me on test under the NHS.
    The only thing is I'm getting muscle aches now, loosing weight still and feeling really terrible tbh. Not sure if I should just have it myself directly.
    This doesn't explain the excessive sleeping though...
     

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    BigZ MC Site Admin Board Certified MD

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopesanddreams View Post
    My test results came back as sex hormones shut off, test is low and thyroid is overactive a bit. Cortisol, the P hormone and everything else was normal (not anemic, no diabetes etc).
    They are redoing blood work in 4 weeks, if test is low and sex hormones are shut off they will put me on test under the NHS.
    The only thing is I'm getting muscle aches now, loosing weight still and feeling really terrible tbh. Not sure if I should just have it myself directly.
    This doesn't explain the excessive sleeping though...
    This was your results and they want you to wait ANOTHER 4 weeks and do the test again to see if you get the same results?? They aren't helping you very well IMO. They should have given you test from seeing these results. What in the world makes them think it's going to change in 4 weeks? Ridiculous! And some of the weight loss can be explained by the overactive thyroid. Testosterone, thyroid, HGH, and IGF are all interconnected in feedback systems. Increases or decreases in one will affect one or more of the others. If you're losing weight, you'll want to increase your clean calories to compensate for the overactive thyroid until you get it under control or even get some IGF to help stop muscle wasting.

    Low test does explain excessive sleeping. When your test is low, you get a marked decrease in energy. When I've been low, I've felt like I didn't even have the strength to walk up stairs, I became depressed and just wanted to sleep for hours. And strangely enough, once you do get enough sleep, you feel a little better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigZ View Post
    This was your results and they want you to wait ANOTHER 4 weeks and do the test again to see if you get the same results?? They aren't helping you very well IMO. They should have given you test from seeing these results. What in the world makes them think it's going to change in 4 weeks? Ridiculous! And some of the weight loss can be explained by the overactive thyroid. Testosterone, thyroid, HGH, and IGF are all interconnected in feedback systems. Increases or decreases in one will affect one or more of the others. If you're losing weight, you'll want to increase your clean calories to compensate for the overactive thyroid until you get it under control or even get some IGF to help stop muscle wasting.

    Low test does explain excessive sleeping. When your test is low, you get a marked decrease in energy. When I've been low, I've felt like I didn't even have the strength to walk up stairs, I became depressed and just wanted to sleep for hours. And strangely enough, once you do get enough sleep, you feel a little better.
    Yes, 1.5 months ago the GP measured test, it was <10, but they didn't measure sex hormones so it was 'incomplete'.
    Then I saw endocrinologist, he took test and sex hormones (and cortisol and thyroid etc) and it was even lower, sex hormones shut off.
    Then he suggested we do the repeat, if its still low, then they can put me on NHS meds.

    The thing is I've been feeling weak and ill for weeks and had to take time off work. I told them can we not do the blood work sooner, they said we can do it this Friday (which would be 3 weeks).

    Yes, I have upped the calories, so my weight is stable, but sleep week on week is getting worse. Yes, if I am sleeping enough, I am able to function for the hours I am awake perfectly fine. But my libido is pretty much dead, I am generally weaker, and down but not too much. I wake up max once in the night, usually for the loo, but my eyes just don't physically open in the morning even if I want to force myself to work. I'm getting shoulder/arm aches also now.

    I am tempted to just start my test/tren cycle with IGF this week, for 12 weeks, run PCT, then if hormones are shut down/low, this means my body is just not producing it period. I've asked if this is okay to the endocrinologist. Or I can wait till Friday for the test/tren but start IGF this week (1 vile + 2ml water, put into 2x1ml insulin injections, have 0.5ml/half the injection per day in the stomach right)?

    The thing is, if they put me on testosterone with the NHS, I can't then do cycles as they will measure my blood constantly and then it will obviously means I can't do cycles ads it will spike... hence I thought of the solution above. What do you think?
     

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    BigZ MC Site Admin Board Certified MD

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    When you say "measure constantly," what's the frequency? The most frequent I've ever had tests was every 3 months, and that's actually overkill. Regular tests in my experience are every 6 months since it takes a long time for the body to even out or get used to the regimen. I was checked every 6 months, and I still did cycles. Just have to let yourself come off in time for the test, and that's just if you're taking testosterone. Other steroids don't show up on regular blood tests. They're only testing for testosterone levels.

    Regular usage of anything that shuts you down will decrease LH and FSH hormones. PCT is supposed to be able to "restore" them. HCG is known to increase these hormones. However, with enough time not producing these hormones, the body sometimes simply stops altogether, and even using HCG won't bring them back. The time period in which this occurs is different for everyone. It happened to me more than 10 years ago. My body doesn't produce LH or FSH at all--zero, and thus I have a medical need to be on TRT no matter what a doc may think about testosterone supplementation.

    If it was me, I'd get the blood test done Friday but go ahead and start the IGF applications. Get the results of the blood test and go from there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigZ View Post
    When you say "measure constantly," what's the frequency? The most frequent I've ever had tests was every 3 months, and that's actually overkill. Regular tests in my experience are every 6 months since it takes a long time for the body to even out or get used to the regimen. I was checked every 6 months, and I still did cycles. Just have to let yourself come off in time for the test, and that's just if you're taking testosterone. Other steroids don't show up on regular blood tests. They're only testing for testosterone levels.

    Regular usage of anything that shuts you down will decrease LH and FSH hormones. PCT is supposed to be able to "restore" them. HCG is known to increase these hormones. However, with enough time not producing these hormones, the body sometimes simply stops altogether, and even using HCG won't bring them back. The time period in which this occurs is different for everyone. It happened to me more than 10 years ago. My body doesn't produce LH or FSH at all--zero, and thus I have a medical need to be on TRT no matter what a doc may think about testosterone supplementation.

    If it was me, I'd get the blood test done Friday but go ahead and start the IGF applications. Get the results of the blood test and go from there.
    I agree. Will start IGF today, won't take test/tren until after the blood work.
     

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    Sorry I didn't reply fully.
    I did test/tren last year, PCT, blood work and I was just over the bottom of the normal range. I was fine, libido was dropping, I got measured and it was lower.
    Then I started getting the other symptoms, that is where they saw it had shut down and test was even lower. Hence he asked me to repeat this Friday, if its low, I get terst on NHS.
    I just assumed if they give me test, I shouldn't cycle. And/or if I do cycle, then it will spike, and that they will get angry because they are providing it.
     

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    You need to try exemestane plus HCG. Even just exemestane to start. What was your PCT and how long? Was it twice as long as your cycle length? Do you run a daily AI or SERM? Have you tried a combination of both?

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    BigZ MC Site Admin Board Certified MD

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopesanddreams View Post
    Sorry I didn't reply fully.
    I did test/tren last year, PCT, blood work and I was just over the bottom of the normal range. I was fine, libido was dropping, I got measured and it was lower.
    Then I started getting the other symptoms, that is where they saw it had shut down and test was even lower. Hence he asked me to repeat this Friday, if its low, I get terst on NHS.
    I just assumed if they give me test, I shouldn't cycle. And/or if I do cycle, then it will spike, and that they will get angry because they are providing it.
    No reason you can't cycle. Just make your TRT in place of the testosterone you would have in the cycle. You can always use other compounds, they don't change testosterone levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean Destructo View Post
    You need to try exemestane plus HCG. Even just exemestane to start. What was your PCT and how long? Was it twice as long as your cycle length? Do you run a daily AI or SERM? Have you tried a combination of both?
    I used HCG and tamoxifen. That sorted me out previously, but over the years my natural test has been going down even when off cycle completely. I don't think it was ever that high anyway to begin with, think its just a genetic thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BigZ View Post
    No reason you can't cycle. Just make your TRT in place of the testosterone you would have in the cycle. You can always use other compounds, they don't change testosterone levels.
    Ok, so their test, my tren and IGF. And 1 aromasin EOD.
    I'm not sure what 'dose' of test they are giving and how high my test will be though. I doubt they will give me a 'steroid' level?
     

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    BigZ MC Site Admin Board Certified MD

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    They might not, but with a test/tren cycle, you don't want test to be high anyway. Common dosage for TRT is 100mg/week. You could probably do fine with that, but you could hypothetically bump it up to 200mg on your own if you want. You'd just have to remember to stop at least a week and a half before any blood test to let levels come down.

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    I have started test / tren again, had 2 jabs, libido is still quite low, but strength and otherwise I feel much better. It takes a while to fully kick in?
     

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    BigZ MC Site Admin Board Certified MD

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    Yes, it usually takes 2-3 weeks for levels to build to peak. What dosage of test did you use/get? Did they give you a script?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigZ View Post
    Yes, it usually takes 2-3 weeks for levels to build to peak. What dosage of test did you use/get? Did they give you a script?
    The Doctor is going to take 2-3 weeks to give me lol. I just started my cycle now that they have the results and know it is low and turned off. I was loosing too much muscle and weight to wait any longer. I'm on 250mg at the moment.
     

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    How often are you injecting 250mg? And what ester of test did they prescribe you?
     

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    Have you ever tried exemestane?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuffie View Post
    How often are you injecting 250mg? And what ester of test did they prescribe you?
    2x a week.
    They didn't prescribe still....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dean Destructo View Post
    Have you ever tried exemestane?
    Nope
     

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    To clarify, I am on 500mg/week i.e. 2x250mg. Sorry my mistake.
     

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    I am on week 3 of the test/tren but libido is still super low. Hair growth improved a little, strength a little, other than that no real changes. Worth doing a blood test to ensure I've not got bunk gear again?
    Thanks jimbosmith316 thanked for this post
    Likes jimbosmith316 liked this post
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by hopesanddreams View Post
    I am on week 3 of the test/tren but libido is still super low. Hair growth improved a little, strength a little, other than that no real changes. Worth doing a blood test to ensure I've not got bunk gear again?
    Not sure how to interpret a like for this post.
     

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    Any thoughts?
     

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