PDA

View Full Version : Natty prep guru - Dr. Joe K.



VA MadDog
10-14-2003, 09:30 AM
OK - Some of you may have heard of Dr. Joe Klemczewski. He is a natty prep guru who has written various articles for Natural BBing and Fitness Mag and others. He has had some clients that have done very well and who seem to be able to repeatedly come into a contest very ripped, hard and full.

I have read his published articles, but for the most part they don't say much. They tell you what not to do but never really explain what TO DO. This, I'm sure, is quite intentional to furthur his business. I don't expect all of the details, but some idea of where he is coming from would be helpful. A concept has to make sense to me before I'm going to consider paying someone to find out what the details are about.

Does anyone here know a little more about the strategy that this guy recommends? It seems that he is opposed to traditional water sodium and potassium manipulation. I think that he recommends carb loading in a similar fashion to the shitload concept but with fewer total carbs.

Skip - are you awake? Have you read this guys articles? There is a recent thread on Chads Board that is a cut and paste from one of his articles. "How to get paper thin skin before contest - started by BeleiverInHIT"

If anyone knows more please share. I think that this could be an interesting discussion.

Skip
10-14-2003, 03:34 PM
hehe Am I awake? Barely.

I have read what he posted to that thread and I will say this:

I agree with a few of his points as they COULD work. He keeps things relatively simple from what I gather and I like that, also. I have long contemplated whether sodium really needs to be cut at all with the use of diuretics. However, his explanation does not go well with me. Aldosterone levels do not, in my opinion, change significantly in such a short amount of time (one or two days of restricting sodium) to cause the body to want to hold water instead of releasing it. He can site his study and I would counter with the fact that this has been done time and time again with almost every prep concept out there and it works in a very HIGH percentage of instances. This alone is enough for me.

As you know, I strongly disagree with the amount of carbs that he says the body can store as glycogen, also. I feel that this has been proved time and time again by NUMEROUS prep guys and their client's condition after very high amounts of carbs. Also, the 'spillover' myth is just that - a myth. He doesn't think so and contradicts himself while explaining it. This is like saying that after the muscle is full with glycogen, the extra carbs continue to combine with water and simply 'seap' (sp?) out of the muscle and lay over it to smooth it out. That is not even logical, in MY opinion.

I could go on an on but I won't. There are so many ways to prep and get close to the same results that it is simply a matter of opinion and preference, , most times.

Again, there is some validity (sp?) to his ideas of not dropping sodium BUT I have not had any reason to change this either for myself or others as has not ever been a consistent or frequent problem when manipulating water.

I also don't like his demeanor at the start of his post. He acts as if anyone else who preps is an idiot and he has all the answers. I would love to debate with him but I prefer to stay away from people like that who tend to be all-knowing.

Skip

VA MadDog
10-14-2003, 04:19 PM
Glad that you are awake and taking nurishment! Came out swinging - lol

I agree that his demeanor seems to be "I know better" when you read his articles, and not just this one. And yes, I also saw some inconsistencies.

I am curious, however, about how many grams of carbs are really needed to effectively get the shitload concept to work. I know that your theory is go for the gusto as the extra WILL NOT spillover, but would half the amount of carbs still do the trick? If so, the potential bloating and GI issues would be diminished. I know of at least one natty (fitdoc) who recently carbed up only on Sat morning and with probably less than 600g of carbs and he peaked just right, winning his class and the overall. First time he even tried it this way. He did not even start to carb up until about 3 hours before pre-judging!

I am intrigued, however, by the guys who seem to hit their peak by keeping water high all the way through, yet come in looking hard and dry. The Na manipulation also seems to be something that some people don't worry about.

Like you said, there are so many different flavors available to choose from - worse than deciding what my favorite is at Baskin Robbins!

Maybe someone who knows more about the details of this guys prep theory will enlighten us. Until then - what are your thoughts on a strategy that would still manipulate sodium but keep water high?

Would simply cutting out sodium and adding in diuretics be enough to pull the water into the cells when combined with the carb deplete and carb load?

If it would be - I really like the idea of not having to worry about water intake timing and not having to go without water for 12-16 hours before adding it back. At least for me, once I crank up water intake and start the diuretics my body does not seem to smooth over at all. All the extra water goes the way of the big flush! Now - what I don't know is if I had not cut water on Friday would I still have dried out from the carb intake?

usman
10-15-2003, 11:41 AM
"Also, the 'spillover' myth is just that - a myth."

"This is like saying that after the muscle is full with glycogen, the extra carbs continue to combine with water and simply 'seap' (sp?) out of the muscle and lay over it to smooth it out. That is not even logical, in MY opinion."

On a personal note Im am more inclined in agreeing with your statements. This is based however more on my opinion of what makes sense rather than personal experiance as i have only done contest prep twice so consider my self to be a newbie in this area. However physiologically one the muscle bellies are full of glycogen, it doesnt make sense to me that the excess glycogen would seap out of the muscle. This is because once the muscle cells are high in glycogen content and near thier super consensated state, wouldnt gylcogen synthase activity reduce. Furthermore wouldnt excess glucose be diverted more to fat cells instead of muslce cells once glycogen concentrations are high. I think if a individual appraoches carbing up by shit loading the day of the show, or the night of the show realisticly they would be able to get away with really high carb intakes. I say this beacause physiologically once carb feeding starts once muscle cells are depleted, glycogen synthase rate at this time would be at its highest thus would be able to take and synthesise glycogen at an extremely high rate. Further more lets just say for example any excess carbs were diverted to fat cells it would take 875g or carbs to amount to lb of fat, i dont think the amount of excess carbs would amount to this therefore would be significant enough to add any noticable amount of fat.
I would say VA MadDog statement about water intake is the biggest issue, when would be the most efficiant time to cut water out if at all. Would dierutic use alone be enough to achieve proper water manipulation. Also since carbo or shit load requires water to bind to glucose, would cutting water out when shit loading affect acheiving glycogen superconsensation.
Finally what if a person started to carb load on a friday morning with shit loading method meal, then for the rest of the friday consume moderate carbs, and consume what neccasiry on saturday before comp. This way they would be able to continue water intake with thier shit load meal as neccesary as well as troughout the day, still cut water out 12 hrs before the show, and be able to make a better judgement on how to go about dierutic use depending on how they look. Plus the next day depending on how they look and feel they could replicate another shit load early in the morning, or just a carb fat load without the sodium. What are your opinions on this if any!

VA MadDog
10-15-2003, 12:22 PM
USMAN - I wonder myself about a better timing and plan for the shitloading. Right now most guys will shitload with a ton of high GI carbs also high in fat and sugar and with a moderate amount of sodium.

Would it work better, as you suggest, to start the shitload just a few hours earlier while keeping water in, and then taper back the carbs? One approach would be to still cut water overnight for 10-12 hours, another might be to keep the water in. I'm wondering, however, if you choose the keep the water in path - would it be wise to shitload with low/no sodium choices?

I have read another thread by a competitor who comes in absolutely ripped that his Friday and Saturday meals were strictly protein - which also has the affect of drying you out. With this theory the carb up is on Tuesday/Wed after two days of carb depletion workouts. This plan used the water drop on Friday night approach with natural diuretics.

I'm wondering if there is anyone on this board who has kept water in thier plan and been able to come in dry and tight? If so -chime in! We want to understand what worked for you.

Skip
10-15-2003, 03:44 PM
Alot of good ideas being thrown around BUT don't forget that I have tried just about every single one of them as far as shitloading goes. I have shitloaded for 3 days straight and every combination in between. I have also tried shitloading with low sodium foods, too.

Can you fill out enough from just a shitload on saturday morning? Sure, but there are so many variables to consider. First, how depleted are you? How big are you? The shitload originally started as a saturday morning only type of thing. It was only after playing around with timing that I noticed that the friday night shitload worked so much better for so many guys.

Now, water will always be debated.

I cut sodium because it works a large majority of the time. The lack of sodium moves water MUCH quicker. I don't believe that aldosterone levels change drastically in only a day or so from the sodium being dropped. If you dropped it on monday or tuesday, sure, it would probably screw you pretty good. Once the water has been manipulated, the sodium can be put back in to help fill you out.
Could you dry out from keeping the sodium in? MAYBE you could but why? I would want to lesten the amount of diuretics or run water longer into friday than I would want to keep sodium in there. Dropping sodium just works too well in helping the body rid water. You just have to make sure you don't get rid of too much. Also, aldactone, which is usually used these days as the diuretic of choice, works by suppressing aldosterone output which in turn allows the body to not let sodium be reabsorbed by the body but excreted.

The deal is that you want to be subtle with the changes that are made. Obviously, if you go too high of potassium and too low of sodium for more than a few days, you are looking at trouble. If you limit your water for too long, you are looking for trouble. Cutting sodium from the diet for only 1 1/2 days to 2 days tops, is not going to do anything except make it easier and quicker to drop water. It then comes down to when to drop the water and whether you need to ADD SOME BACK. The latter is usually overlooked and presumed to be suicide as far as condition goes. If more guys paid attention and were willing to put back water when and if needed, their condition would improve in as little as 15 minutes which I have proved time and time again with myself and many clients. VA, even though you didn't peak perfectly, you still said that you saw an obvious difference from adding water back in. It would be nice if water could be dropped perfectly as far as timing and nothing would have to be added. However, that will never happen. You have to error on the side of having the water off FIRST and then adding it back in if needed to fill out.

Just my opinion but ..........

Skip
ADD: USman - You are on the same page as I am with your explanation of what happens to excess carbs. Now, my explanation of glycogen seaping out of the muscle is only to make reference as this is oversimplifying on my part. It can't seap out and is simply diverted and stored as fat. I was pointing out how rediculous it would be to believe that it can actually 'seap' out and 'spillover' - that's all.

VA MadDog
10-15-2003, 04:55 PM
Hi Skip - I agree with your logic and strategy on sodium.

I started a similar discussion on another board and have gotten some very interesting feedback from some folks who have successfully kept water in.

The strategy that has worked for them has been a modified shitload, I say modified since they have stuck with less "shitty" carbs - things like white rice and applesauce but carbs that have been sodium free or very low sodium. They did not carb load until Friday which was a heavy carb day, then they continued to carb on Saturday but at a reduced level - still very low sodium.

Both of these guys successfully kept in water all the way through plus had some wine (like 8oz) and black coffee, plus sweatened lemonaide to keep the insulin spike going. (Must have been looking for the can a lot - lol)

I have asked for a few more details, but from their explanation it looks like what would be a normal water manipulation - up water, start diuretics but then keep water in instead of stopping on Friday night. Both indicate that they were very hard and had great pumps for pre-judging, but were also "thin skinned". Both were lean and ready from a bf standpoint, which I think is a prerequiste for this to be workable.

I recognize that you can probably get to the same place by adding the right amount of water back in at the right time (which I sorta messed up - :eek: last time) but what I like about this approach is that it essentially removes the water timing variable - one less thing to worry about, one less thing to mess up. It sure sounds interesting. Both of these guys were hard core natty's so there were no A/S or perscription diuretic variables in play.

Skip
10-16-2003, 02:19 AM
I got to thinking, dropping your water on friday night vs. not dropping it is only a matter of about 4 hours or so - depending on what time you hit the pillow. I mean, unless they are getting up on Saturday morning and continuing to drink alot of water, we are talking about a difference of only about 4 hours or so.

If they are drinking alot of water on saturday morning, this wouldn't be needed. Do you know what their water intake was like on saturday morning??

Just curious.

Skip

VA MadDog
10-16-2003, 11:39 AM
Skip - I like real world examples like you do, and I know that you have a ton of these from all of the people who you have helped coach.

I always give more weight to something that has worked for someone else (more than one person and/or more than one time) and even better yet, something that has worked for me. For the purpose of discussing a couple of these real world examples I'll give a few more details and some observations from the two guys who have kept water in successfully.

Coincidently both of these guys had back to back contests with one or two weeks in between them. Both did the normal water drop the first time and kept water in the second time.

For the second contest the first guy drank 3 gallons of water over the course of the day on Friday and over 2 gallons on Saturday. His Saturday morning meal included two large glasses of orange juice.

The second guy also drank 3 gallons on Friday over the course of the day. On Saturday morning he had a large black coffee and then more water and 8oz of lemonaide shortly before Pre-judging.

Both continued with the lemonaide during the day on Saturday to keep their insulin levels high. Both also stayed with no/low sodium diets all the way through, and added potassium to balance electrolytes.

Here are a few of the first guys observations from the second show:

"Where most BBers start to limit thier water intake on Friday, I drank 3 gal of water that day and 2 & 1/2 gal the day of the show."

"Not only did it fill out my muscles, but also helped me flush the last remaining sodium out of my system making me even harder than I was two weeks ago."

"Showtime came and I hardly had to pump up at all. My muscles were already swollen with water and glycogen."

And a few observations from the second guy:

"As for diuretics I used coffee, grapefruit and a nice 6 oz glass of chianti the night before. Calms nerves, helps with aldosterone and will really dry you out."

"That morning (Sat) had beef, grapefruit, white rice, and a half jar of apple sauce (all sodium free) and a big black coffee."

"I also took about 8 oz of country time lemonade to continue with the thermogenesis all the sugar Id already had was creating. I was pretty vascular and had the best pump Ive had on stage."

"For me I think it worked well. Everyone was shocked at how dry my abs were with drinking water all day long. So was I."

"By the fourth meal on friday of loading my abs were really dry. I mean there was a huge difference from Thurs to Friday. I can only think that the introduction of the carbs was drawing the water to the muscles away from the skin."

"I kept my water for the whole week right around 3 gallons. And yes I drank water all night long (Fri) to my girlfriends dismay as she was taking the cautious approach. Of course I was peeing like crazy. "


I've seen pictures of both of these guys in the examples and they both looked very good - dry, full, hard (thin skinned). Just what we aim for! Both also placed very well in the contests. In fact the first guy took the overalls for both the novice and the open as a light heavy. Pretty impressive.

Interesting results.

WWM/PUMPED
10-16-2003, 03:35 PM
VA only one way to find out if it works.

VA MadDog
10-16-2003, 03:44 PM
I know - but I still like to think it through before I try it, and even better - I like to see someone else successfully try the theory out first.

WWM/PUMPED
10-16-2003, 03:50 PM
I here you bro. fina another ginne pig. lol

I have to tell you the truth though I rather pay somebody like skip to worry about things like this. I plan on doing many many shows in the future and I think the way you get it 100% perfect every time out is sticking with one pep guy though all of them . I beleave in 2 minds are better than one.

Did I type fina? though I was saying find! damn I need to start back up ASAP> lol

you have any dates on the states this year?

VA MadDog
10-16-2003, 07:11 PM
WWM - The Conquest show you were set for will be Aug 21st.

There should be two - four shows in the late April early May timeframe. They are usually in the greater D.C. and VA Beach areas. Should be both non-tested and Drug free contests in both places. I do not have any hard dates on these yet.

There are also several down in N.C. around the same timeframe each year.

I agree with you about a good coach. I was very pleased with the support that Skip provided. I think that he is also always on the look out for different and perhaps better approaches.

You see it on the board often. Stick around any you are bound to learn something new each week.

WWM/PUMPED
10-17-2003, 08:35 AM
the conquest and its promorter can suck my ass. LOL I wouldnt even pay to see one of his shows again.

I am planing on the VA state (non tested) around late may early june. just dont have the dates

VA MadDog
10-17-2003, 08:56 AM
patk will know as soon as anyone will since he plans to help promote the contest you want to enter.

I don't know the Conquest promoter, but you can't really blame him for a hurricane. He probably lost a bundle of money and I doubt that he had any insurance to cover the business loss.

WWM/PUMPED
10-17-2003, 09:07 AM
yea I know he couldnt help it but I swear every show he has there is something that goes wrong. the spring show he has the AC wasnt working and last years conquest the AC didnt work and both night and morrning was 1 hour late starting. there just allways something.