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DecaDent*
06-17-2002, 03:29 PM
When you juice do AR's increase or decrease?

This study dealing with androgen receptor(AR)expression showed NO downregulation of the AR with AAS use. In other words AAS use does not reduce AR number,just the opposite was shown,in powerlifters on AAS they had a HIGHER number of AR's than non-AAS using powerlifters.
Is it really necessary to take time "off" to let the AR#'s recover?Doesn't seem to be necessary based on these results.


Here's a brief summary:

The expression of androgen receptors in human neck and limb muscles: effects of training and self-administration of androgenic-anabolic steroids.
.
The purpose of this study was to investigate the immunohistochemical expression of androgen receptors (AR) in human vastus lateralis and trapezius muscles and to determine whether long-term strength training and self-administration of androgenic-anabolic steroids are accompanied by changes in AR content. Biopsy samples were taken from eight high-level power-lifters (P), nine high-level power-lifters who used anabolic steroids (PAS) and six untrained subjects (U). Myonuclei and AR were visualised in cross-sections stained with the monoclonal antibody against AR and 4',6-diamidino-2-phenylindole. The proportion of AR-containing myonuclei per fibre cross-section was higher in the trapezius than in the vastus lateralis (P<0.05). In the trapezius, the proportion of AR-containing myonuclei was higher in P compared to U and in PAS compared to both P and U (P<0. 05). On the contrary, in the vastus lateralis, there were no differences in AR content between the three groups. Myonuclear number in both muscles was higher in P compared to U and in PAS compared to both P and U (P<0.05). In conclusion, AR content differs greatly between human neck and limb muscles. Moreover, the regulation of AR-containing myonuclei following training and self-administration of androgenic-anabolic steroids is muscle dependent.

Histochem Cell Biol 2000 Jan;113(1):25-9 (ISSN: 0948-6143)
Kadi F; Bonnerud P; Eriksson A; Thornell LE
Department of Integrative Medical Biology, Section for Anatomy, Umea University, 901 87, Umea, Sweden. fawzi.kadi@anatomy.umu.se.

mbstrong
06-17-2002, 04:11 PM
English please,lol. So what it is saying is that long term users are ok........:confused:

Modivius
06-17-2002, 06:42 PM
How come I need three times as much juice as I did five years ago?

BStrongBwell*
06-17-2002, 08:38 PM
The whole theory of downregulation just never made sense logically to me. I mean, receptors don't just vanish, they exist on the cell and serve a purpose. They are either open and free, or bound with an androgen and not free...

DecaDent*
06-18-2002, 12:47 PM
I agree BSBW,the surprise for me here was that the AR # actually increased in power lifters on juice compared to natural powerlifters. So all and all some good news. I am working thru a nice paper on AR's now and there are actually at least 3 separate binding sites within each AR. I'm thinking this might be why stacking and switching up is so effective.

DecaDent*
06-18-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by mbstrong
English please,lol. So what it is saying is that long term users are ok........:confused:

More than OK(from an AR standpoint) they are BETTER!!

Sorry some of my shit is a bit obscure sometimes,I try and review about 100 papers a week and pass on the more interesting/applicable ones for discussion and info. You should see some of the shit I don't post,like myostatin m-rna elucidation in the rainbow trout,that was about useless but you never know when you might come across something that will help your program in some way. :)

mbstrong
06-18-2002, 02:40 PM
Thanks decadent, I was trying to understand it. I guess I did a little bit,lol. Keep them coming bro

BStrongBwell*
06-18-2002, 04:11 PM
You always put up great stuff deca... damn, wish I had time to review that many papers! It's really interesting that the AR# INCREASED in the traps, but not in the vastus lateralus (outer quad). Hmmm.... be curious if the increase could be isolated to a particular androgen, certain types of training, or combinations of those. Do you have the full paper?

rooster1
06-18-2002, 09:46 PM
Excellent information deca.Thanks for sharing.I LOVE reading that stuff.It is the highlight of my day.

DecaDent*
06-19-2002, 10:38 AM
No problem guys. I think I've already deleted the full paper,BSBW...I'll see if I can retrieve it.....

hard charger
06-19-2002, 10:47 AM
Presser
prolly cause you never cleaned out long enough

But it's so hard to stop :D

madchemist36
06-19-2002, 04:29 PM
taking a break is imprtant so your AR could be fresh and free and ready to be juiced.

th1rty6
06-20-2002, 11:21 AM
Article is too long to post, but here's the link:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/pharmacology/androgen-receptor-regulation.htm

gearedup
06-20-2002, 11:42 AM
that is not tru I have a post I made abou this very subject on fitnessboard a while back let me see if I can find it!

The reason you need more juice 5 years later is not because it isnt working as well it's because you can only put on so much size in a period of time!

You will gain as much or more by staying on... you only get the feeling you gain more by taking breaks because you lost weight when of and are gaining back weight some of which you already had!


Originally posted by madchemist36
taking a break is imprtant so your AR could be fresh and free and ready to be juiced.

gearedup
06-20-2002, 11:43 AM
There is a common belief that these receptors downgrade from AS use, thus needing time off from the cycle to recover them before starting another cycle. time one = time off.
the androgen receptors (AR) do not down regulate. actually they UP regulate with increased AS use. the myth of receptor downregulation might come from the fact that beta 2 receptors for clenbuterol downregulates with increased clen use. the AR, unlike the beta receptors, are inside the cell withing a coding region of the DNA, and has either 2 modes: on/off. when an AR agonist binds to it it turns on and stimulates protien synthesis by mRNA transcription. the difference is how long each agonist likes to stay on. increased use of AS does not cause changes in binding affinity of the AR. the more muscle mass you have the more AR you will have in your body, hence making AS more effective. this is a big reason why kids should wait to start their first cycle until a good base has been established, so they can be more responsive to AS without as much sides. this also means that with increased use of AS, there will be more AR, so increased AS use will in a way upregulate AR. this also means that drugs that compete for AR binding with your AS does not lessen the AS anabolic effects through the receptor, but rather through non-AR mediated mechanisms unless the drug binds to the AR to deactivate it. proviron binds to the AR and has week anabolic properties by itself, but is thought to decrease the effectiveness of the AS due to competitive binding, but this interference is more likely from a non-AR mediated mechanism.

the reason the first cycle tends to be more effective for some people is because they are farther away from their genetic potential. for example, if a person is already 30 pounds over his genetic potential, he may need (hypothetical) 1500mg of T/wk just to maintain his mass above this natural barrier. but if a beginner were to take 1200mg/wk of T for his first cycle he would likely achieve massive gains even though he has less AR than someone 2x his size.

the reason to take time off between cycles is to allow the endocrine (hypothalamus and pituitary) to get back to normal after having been shut down from an overload of exogenous androgens. this process takes weeks and perhaps months to return to normal and is only helped by clomid and possibly tribulus. without time off from cycles a person risks permanent shut down or depressed hpta function.

eca, grapfruit, dnp, all cause heavy water intake and excretion, hence the notion of possibly flushing the body and maybe flushing the AR along with it, but all myth.


1. Dissociation of Steroid from Binding Protein
2. Transport of Steroid into Cell, Formation of Binding Steroid
3. Binding of Steroid (Testosterone, Progesterone, Estrogen) to Cytoplasmic Receptor with Bound Heat Shock Protein
4. Loss of Heat Shock Protein forms "Activated" Receptor
5. Activated Cytoplasmic Receptor Enters Nucleus, Binds DNA Response Elements as Homodimers.
6. DNA transcribed into messenger RNA
7. mRNA leaves nucleus, translated into protein on cytoplasmic ribosomes
8. Newly made proteins elicit biological response

gearedup
06-20-2002, 11:47 AM
Everyone has always argued this with me saying you need time off... simple put its not true!

Auriflex
06-20-2002, 12:35 PM
Another reason you need to take a break here and there is cost! Damn, give my wallet a break now and then.

Can I get an AMEN?

DecaDent*
06-20-2002, 12:37 PM
That was a great summary gearedup. I'm in total agreement. A side point,that's why longer cycles to me make sense as long as you let your HPTA rebound every so often I think you grow more and keep more.

th1rty6
06-20-2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Auriflex
Can I get an AMEN?

AMEN brotha!

th1rty6
06-20-2002, 12:58 PM
Hey Auriflex, how many posts do you have to have to get the "moron" status? :D

rooster1
06-20-2002, 10:00 PM
Deca,when you say longer cycles.Do you mean 10-12 weeks or longer?

DecaDent*
06-24-2002, 12:20 PM
12 weeks seem to work best for me,switching to short half life AAS for the last 3 -4 weeks of the cycle