1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDVik View Post
    Very interesting theory.
    Just a practical question:

    If I have 2000IU vial, can it last for 20days without degradation?

    Maybe I need to dilute with BW if the water in the preloaded syringe was not BW?

    Thankyou and cheers to all this is my first post here!
    Yes, as long as it’s refrigerated. It’s good for a 4 weeks before it starts to breakdown. And even at 4 weeks it’s only becoming less potent.


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    key part ''you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose'' , i think this time distance also same for the ones who uses hcg after cycle i have seen people crying about their natural production did not start even tho they had start injecting hcg , this might be the reason ?
     

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    You either must take the HCG BEFORE AND THROUGHOUT the cycle. Or you must wait until the last ester has cleared to "blast". That would be , say for test cyp, 4 weeks AFTER the last inject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean Destructo View Post
    You either must take the HCG BEFORE AND THROUGHOUT the cycle. Or you must wait until the last ester has cleared to "blast". That would be , say for test cyp, 4 weeks AFTER the last inject.
    Agreed


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dean Destructo View Post
    You either must take the HCG BEFORE AND THROUGHOUT the cycle. Or you must wait until the last ester has cleared to "blast". That would be , say for test cyp, 4 weeks AFTER the last inject.
    what that would be for orals ? for example for anavar ?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Presser View Post
    H.C.G. During Your Steroid Cycle ~VERSUS~ H.C.G. Post Steroid Cycle. (pct)

    When To Start Using HCG?


    Post Cycle Therapy aka "P.C.T." is essential after any steroid cycle. There has been a lot of great PCT protocols over the years, and many bodybuilders , and Athletes alike has garnered success with following some of these etched in stone protocols. Never-the-less, anything and most everything can be and will be approved upon at some point, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from an Anabolic / Androgenic Steroid Cycle.

    You Can NOT Have Proper PCT without Proper HCG! So lets address the Misconception and Misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show our loyal MuscleCemistry.com Readers the most efficient way to use HCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.


    HCG Reveil –
    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCg) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). The testicles (testes) are then Stimulated by this (LH) Luteinizing Hormone to produce testosterone.
    NOTE: LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.


    When steroids (exogenous hormones) are introduces to the body, A QUICK DECLINE in LH Levels Occur. The cessation of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone. This process leads to a quick onset of testicular degeneration, by way of a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production.


    A small maintenance dosage of HCG ran alongside the steroid cycle can stop this "DEGENERATION" before it ever occurs!
    Like myself, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that HCG should be used POST STEROID CYCLE, During Their PCT.

    Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

    Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.)


    If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.



    One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity.
    This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity.

    If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.


    To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%.


    Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.


    The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids.

    In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production.



    These studies show that postponing HCG usage until the end of a steroid cycle increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery.
    As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG at the end of a cycle, estrogen will be increased disproportionately to testosterone, which then causes further HPTA suppression (from high estrogen) while increasing the risk of gyno. For example, high doses of hCG have been found to raise estradiol up to 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%. Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes -- the last thing someone wants during recovery. While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a SERM such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM (covered in another article).



    In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.


    Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)


    A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a twice a week shot of 200iu hCG, or possibly a once a week shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG ‘kick starting’ dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence, since the testes will be desensitized, thus requiring a higher dose. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)


    Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

    Overview

    For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.
    In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.
    Wish there’s was a way to copy this article and save it for later. It’s spot on snd very beneficial information


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    One question , if you keep your natural test production fine while on cycle (with hcg ) , do you still need to take pct after ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by GWJOE View Post
    One question , if you keep your natural test production fine while on cycle (with hcg ) , do you still need to take pct after ?
    Yes, using HCG during cycle, makes it so when you run PCT after your cycle , hat youll be able to recover much closer to your original natural levels than you would have been able to had you not run HCG throughout cycle. But yes, You would still need to run post cycle meds
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    Author: Ben Presser
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    So using pct after u bounced back ( with hcg ) wont supress ur natural test production ? Some of my friends are not considering what to use for pct without having bloodwork done , and if they have fine natural test production after cycle (without hcg ) they dont use pct , due to what you have written up there , even with hcg you need pct , without hcg its like %1000 need of pct even tho u recovered , right ?
     

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    Using HCG while off cycle does not recover you natural test. It will appear As so but once you stop hcg then you’re back to “start up mode”. All the hcg does is two things.
    While on : it keeps the liyding cells in idle so start up is faster and smooth
    While in PCT :timing is so very important. It jump starts the lyding cells with its fake signals to speed up the process. Only issues with him this method is the high dosage and the possible desensitized lyding cells.

    If you want to To truly recover your natural testosterone then a full 4 week PCT with nolva and clomid is necessary.


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    What’s this PCT you speak of ? 😂
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbull View Post
    What’s this PCT you speak of ? H.C.G. During Your Steroid Cycle ~VERSUS~ H.C.G. Post Steroid Cycle.  BIG DIFFERENCE !!!
    Lol


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    This is very close to what my personal protocol has been for over three years. 250 iu every third day give or take. Beats the he’ll out of shrunken testixcles. Be aware of a possible e2 spike. Have anti e in hand. I endorse this protocol fwiw. I am 48 and don’t come off anymore.
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    Has anyone tried to inject HCG directly into the testicles ? folks on the net swear it works wonders and is much more effective. Is that true ? what is the danger with this approach ? thanks.
     

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    Anyone using HCG while on prescribed TRT. I know some docs prescribe it instead of Test E. I am already prescribed Test E 120mg/wk. wondering if adding HCG has merit.


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    I don't see the point brutha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Presser View Post
    I don't see the point brutha
    Appreciate that. I ordered WAY too much a while back and am basically trying to find a use for it. But since then I went on TRT, soooooo LOL.


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    Gotcha, well for the younger guys who still want kids and everyone else who cycles on and off then yes HCG is a must but once your prescribed TRT , I can’t think of a single reason you’d want to use HCG as well in all honesty.

    trt is for life ya know, or until your too old to give a fuck anymore lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Presser View Post
    Gotcha, well for the younger guys who still want kids and everyone else who cycles on and off then yes HCG is a must but once your prescribed TRT , I can’t think of a single reason you’d want to use HCG as well in all honesty.

    trt is for life ya know, or until your too old to give a fuck anymore lol
    lol ya, the latter...


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    I stimulate mine by rubbing them and their sidekick a lot.
     

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