I need some help fast.

Elmosback

New member
Ok, first of all I may have asked this b4 but, in my defense. I have alot going on in my life right now. So I may have forgotten the answer. I am on week 5 post cycle of pro,deca,test e and my balls are still really small. Is it too late to use HcG? I had a problem with my nolva so I had to order from cy-sol and I just got it. If I can still take the hcg how much a day. Or should I wait till I start my next cycle and do hcg mid cycle. Which would you sugest?


Also is the Nolva from cy-sol to kept in the fridge or at room temp?
 
And I'm almost positive the nolva (tamoxifen) is fine room temp
 
room temp should be fine. When are you going back on cycle? If you are going back on soon then just hit the hcg during your cycle. I've read that using hcg off cycle isn't a good idea anyways, supposedly you will crash pretty hard when you come off of the hcg.
 
Some info on hcg, never used it before so I only know what I've read on it:

Can I use hcg only after a cycle?-no you shouldn’t. it is better than nothing, but clomid or nolva are far better plans. Since hcg mimics lh, your body wont begin producing its own lh, as it sees no need to because test levels are high. You stop the hcg, your balls stop making test until your body begins producing adequate levels of its own lh, and that may take a while if you don’t use clomid or nolvadex to stimulate lh production.

Can hcg be used w/out steroids to boost test production above baseline?- yes. It is not recommended however. Continued use of hcg will desensitize the leydig cells to lh, meaning once you stop using the hcg as an artificial lh, you will crash bad. The natural lh production once restored by using nolvadex or clomid, may not be as effective as it once was. to boost natural test above baseline, anastrozole, nolvadex and clomid are better choices.
 
The rest of that article:

What is HCG?- hcg stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotropin.

Where does hcg come from?-it is extracted from the urine of pregnant women.

Is hcg a scheduled medication?- no, its similar to clomid and liquidex as far as US laws go. However you would need a prescription to purchase legally in the US, and this is one of those “grey areas”

What is hcg normally used for?-it is used to help females get pregnant, and can be used to stimulate testosterone production in males.

How does hcg work?- hcg mimics LH(leutenizing hormone). The presence of LH causes the Leydig cells in the gonads to produce testosterone. This effect also restores the size of the testes rather quickly if they were suppressed from a cycle.

Can I use hcg only after a cycle?-no you shouldn’t. it is better than nothing, but clomid or nolva are far better plans. Since hcg mimics lh, your body wont begin producing its own lh, as it sees no need to because test levels are high. You stop the hcg, your balls stop making test until your body begins producing adequate levels of its own lh, and that may take a while if you don’t use clomid or nolvadex to stimulate lh production.

Can hcg be used w/out steroids to boost test production above baseline?- yes. It is not recommended however. Continued use of hcg will desensitize the leydig cells to lh, meaning once you stop using the hcg as an artificial lh, you will crash bad. The natural lh production once restored by using nolvadex or clomid, may not be as effective as it once was. to boost natural test above baseline, anastrozole, nolvadex and clomid are better choices.

What should hcg be used for?-hcg is commonly used by bodybuilders on either very heavy or very long cycles, when the hpta gets severely suppressed. Although hcg can be used in almost any cycle, the benefits are most pronounced on heavy/long ones.

How long does hcg boost testosterone for?- hcg can boost testosterone for up to 5 days following the last dose, although the drugs halflife is very short, and its no longer active at that point.

Can hcg cause gyno?-Yes. Estrogen is elevated by two ways from hcg use. Primarily from the sharp rise in testosterone, which allows more testosterone to aromatize to estrogen. Secondly hcg can cause a small amount of estrogen to be produced which is not from the result of aromatizing, and this is the reason that a combination of an anti aromatose such as liquidex/arimidex/letrozole and a estrogen receptor blocker such as nolvadex are ideally used. The nolvadex may also offer some additional benefit to help avoid a negative estrogen feedback to the hpta during hcg therapy, which would otherwise slightly lessen the effectiveness of the therapy.

How does hcg come packaged?-you get 2 vials or amps, 1 has the powdered hcg in it, and the other has a diluent in it(solvent). The diluent is typically bacteriostatic water, or sterile water w/ .09% sodium chloride. Depending on the brand and version, the package commonly comes w/ enough diluent to make concentrations ranging from 250-10,000iu per ml.

If your package is 5000iu, and you add 1ml diluent, you have 5000iu per ml.
If you add 5ml diluent, you final mix is then 1000iu per ml.
If you add 10ml diluent, then 500iu per ml and so on.

This is simple math, and you don’t wanna screw it up-know what dose you are taking!

If your package doesn’t include enough diluent to make the concentration you want, you have 2 options to make it easy to accurately measure your doses.

1-buy some insulin syringes, U-100 type. On the graduated markings, the 100iu mark is equal to 1ml, the 50iu is .5ml etc. THIS DOES NOT MEAN IF YOU FILL IT TO THE 100IU MARK THAT YOU ARE TAKING 100IU OF HCG! Iu’s are not a measurement of volume or weight, they are a measure of effectiveness for a desired response from specific drugs/compounds. Every compound is different. These are insulin syringes, and they are made for insulin-not hcg. Insulin is the same iu concentration per ml everytime(if its u100 type), hcg is not. Imagine if you made your hcg 10,000iu per ml. if you fill the insulin syringe up to 100iu mark, you now have 10,000iu in there! Not good. You must understand this.
So if you had 5000iu per ml, and wanted to take a 500iu shot, you would inject 10iu on the insulin syringe scale.

2-buy some bacteriostatic water off the internet, its easily found. Simply add more to dilute it to the desired conscentration. Making lower concentrations are easier and more accurately dosed. Then it can accurately be measured w/ a regular syringe.

Mix the two together, they dissolve very easily. Keep things sterile folks. Unused hcg can be refrigerated and is ok to use for about a month after the initial mixing. You can purchase empty sterile vials from a few online sites cheap. http://www.getpinz.com/ is a good place to get insulin syringes as well as bacteriostatic water.

Heres a typical example of a proper post cycle recovery including hcg. Dosage will vary depending on how suppressed your hpta is, and how well you respond to hcg, but this is normally a good starting point, more is not necessarily better. Some will respond better to 750iu ed or even 1000iu ed, actually everyone will respond better to 1000iu ed, but we don’t want to desensitize the leydig cells, which would make clomid treatment less effective. Everyone is different, start at 500iu ed, and if after 5-6 days your balls aren’t noticeably bigger and hanging lower, consider a slightly higher dose. I know I respond very well and quickly to small doses, but that may not be the case for you.

**********

Find out when you would normally start your clomid therapy.

Inject hcg 500iu everyday, either intramuscular or sub q, for 10-14 days. Place the hcg so that the LAST hcg shot is about 5 days before clomid therapy starts.

Run clomid like you normally would, which is usually 3-4 wks of clomid therapy in a descending dose. Using 300mg clomid the first day is a good idea.

Anti estrogens should definitely be used during during hcg therapy. Both an anti aromatose such as liquidex, arimidex, or letrozole, as well as nolvadex ideally should be used, although just nolvadex can suffice, as well as just an anti aromatose. However everyone is different when it comes to sensitivity to estrogen induced gyno. A combo of both types of anti e’s is best and ensures your safety from gyno.
 
More info on HCG and why it should be used during cycle not post-cycle:

Using HCG
It is our opinion that HCG is probably one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in bodybuilding. Hopefully this information will go some way towards rectifying that for the members of MuscleTalk. HCG stands for Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin and is not a steroid, but a natural peptide hormone which develops in the placenta of pregnant women during pregnancy to controls the mother's hormones. (Incidentally, this is the reason you may hear of people testing for growth hormone (HGH) with a pregnancy testing kit - If their HGH shows 'pregnant', they've been ripped-off with cheaper HCG - but we digress slightly).

Its action in the male body is like that of LH, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone even in the absence of endogenous LH. HCG is therefore used during longer or heavier steroid cycles to maintain testicular size and condition, or to bring atrophied (shrunken) testicles back up to their original condition in preparation for post-cycle Clomid therapy. This process is necessary because atrophied testicles produce reduced levels of natural testosterone, this situation should be rectified prior to post-cycle Clomid therapy.

HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production.

The typically observed dosing of 2000 to 5000IU every 4 to 5 days causes such an increase in oestrogen levels via aromatisation of the natural testosterone that this has been responsible for many cases of gynecomastia.

From the above discussion it is clear that HCG is best used during a cycle, either to:

1) Avoid testicular atrophy, or
2) Rectify the problem of an existing testicular atrophy.

Doses of HCG
Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia. This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

Presentation and Administration of HCG
Synthetic HCG is often known as Pregnyl (generic name) and is available in 2500iu and 5000iu (not ideal for the above doses!). Administration of the compound is either by intra-muscular or subcutaneous injection. It comes as a powder which needs to be mixed with the sterile water. The powder is temperature-sensitive prior to mixing and should not be exposed to direct heat. After mixing, it should be kept refrigerated and used within a few weeks - though there are sterility issues which need to be considered after mixing.

Summary and Price of Clomid and HCG
Clomid is more effective than HCG post cycle, but some long-term users like to use HCG during a cycle, or to prepare the testes for Clomid therapy.

Clomid is available in 50mg tablets most commonly, but also comes in 25mg capsules. 10 x 50mg tablets should be anywhere from £10-20; $10 - $20.00. HCG prices range from £15-£25 per 3 ampoules.


Like I said earlier I haven't used hcg, I've only read about it, but it would make sense based on what I have read to just use during your next cycle or just stay natural for awhile....but who wants to do that. lol :D
 
Elmosback said:
I am on week 5 post cycle of pro,deca,test e and my balls are still really small.

This is your real problem. Your pituitary will start releasing LH on its own rather quickly, even without Clomid. But because your testes have atrophied so much, the response to the surge in LH will be minimal. Consequently, your testosterone levels will remain suppressed and your HPTA will not recover quickly.

It's my opinion that hcg is really your only choice if you want to restore your HPTA anytime soon. Otherwise, you'd have to run a SERM for 3-4 months and hope your balls bounce back on their own. Obviously, running hcg this late post-cycle is not the most ideal method. It's best to use it periodically throughout the cycle to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place. But the damage is done... BTW, if you used nandrolone decanoate, you've still got enough nandrolone in your body to keep you suppressed even longer. Deca cycles really need to be thought out fully to ease into post-cycle recovery. But that's another thread.

The Pregnyl prescribing info has this to say:

"Selected cases of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in males. [that's you]

1. 500 to 1,000 USP Units three times a week for three weeks, followed by the same dose twice a week for three weeks.

2. 4,000 USP Units three times weekly for six to nine months, following which the dosage may be reduced to 2,000 USP Units three times weekly for an additional three months."

#2 is pretty extreme and I certainly wouldn't undertake that protocol. So you're stuck with #1, which sounds very reasonable to me. HCG is a VERY potent drug and it works very well.

Unfortunately, you WILL experience a rebound effect after discontinuing the HCG as was mentioned in some of the info posted by machine99. However, it's my opinion that this rebound pales in comparison to trying to recover with severely atrophied testes.

The only time I used HCG w/nolva post-cycle, I did experience additional atrophy after discontinuing the hcg. But my testes did bounce back very quickly after a brief period of time (~10 days). Running the nolva for another 5 weeks after that certainly helped with recovery. After learning that lesson, I now use hcg intermittently throughout the cycle.
 
I am using HCG twice per week back to back days at .5 cc and my nads are back to full size. Love the HCG...
 
I had to use Hcg after my post cycle theropy ............it was a long 25 weeks tren, test enth, dbol , prop, eq .......
 
after five weeks it is not unusual for you to still have shrinkage. i'd say give it a few more weeks maybe three and you should be fine.
 
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