rationale behind sh*t load

[VA MadDog]

What they are doing

R - For many of these folks keeping water in is something that they have just tried. All of them had previously done the stop water on Friday strategy.

Each persons plan has varied a little, but essentially they have all increased water intake early in the week to something like 2x normal. Dropped sodium on Thursday and Friday. Most have added potassium and natural diuretics. With the new keep water in strategy they kept intake high until they went to bed on Friday. Then on Saturday some drank "as much water as they wanted", others drank what I would consider a moderate or more normal amount of water. Some of that came from black coffee and/or herbal tea. None have intentionally dropped water, they simply don't drink anything while they are sleeping on Friday night.

I think that I have convinced at least some of them that tapering water is non-productive and may work against you. So keep water high until you drop if you are going to drop it. I'm not sure in my mind if I would keep water at 2x + on Saturday, but it does seem that a normal water/liquid intake on Sat works just fine. I have also suggested Skips method of using a carbo force mix before going on stage and have gotten good feedback from some who have tried it.

What I have found interesting is that none of the people who have tried the new keep water in strategy have had any spill over or smoothing over. Every one of them have come in dry, hard and full. Now, again, these are all folks who have been around the block a few times and who are coming in to the contest week very lean.

As I mentioned they are all over the board when it comes to how they carb up. The majority have used Thursday as a heavy carb day and most have then switched to a diet of just lean ground beef and grapefruit for every meal on Friday. Some have started this on Thursday and pushed the heavy carb day back to Wednesday. Some have continued with the LGB and grapefruit on Saturday, others have gone with light/moderate carbs on Saturday. One did a mini-shit load ( but with relativly clean carbs)only on Saturday morning (and won his class). Another carbed up on Wednesday and TH am, then went to the LGB and grapefruit until Sat morning, then took in a lot of white rice and applesauce on Saturday am. He also took his class.

As I have done in the past, it seems like many folks still struggle to find the best carb up scheme. The good thing is that the only impact in the various carb up approaches seems to be with regard to "how" full they feel/appear. It is a relative and subjective thing. No one has reported feeling flat and most attribute that to keeping water in. Some just felt that they could have taken in more carbs. Several have said that the old traditional TH/FRI carb up just does not seem to work well for them, but that was in conjunction with their previous drop water strategy.

One guy is currently doing three back to back shows three weeks in a row. He took first in his class the first show, and feels real good about how things are looking for today (his second show). Last week was the first time that he has kept water in and tried the carbo force concoction and he thought that both worked great for him. I'm a little worried that for week three the whole carb down carb up cycle might catch up with him and his body just say - I'm tired and have had enough of this!, but it will be very interesting to watch. He has promissed to share all of the details with regard to the carb/sodium manipulation. He has been using natural diuretics and some potassium supplementation.

What kind of details are you looking for that I might not have explained?

 

[homonunculus]

VA,

That's just what I was looking for. Seems that as long as there is a decreasse in water intake occuring between Fri. night and Sat (even even normal amt. of water are consumed) that there will be a loss of water.

Funny you mention all of those different approaches. I have tried each of those for different shows or as practice runs leading up to shows. So many ways to skin a cat as long as you remember to use the right kind of knife.

Thanks for the details, VA.

-Randy

 

[Bently]

I can understand keeping water high on Friday right thru til bedtime, but would be concerned with drinking more than 8-16oz saturday morning due to the sodium ingested during the
sh!tload. I think my body would be fine with it for pre-judging assuming it was early enough but I bet I'd be smooth & soft looking by late afternoon. JMO of what I expect from my body considering past experience.
KR

 

[VA MadDog]

Good point

I can understand keeping water high on Friday right thru til bedtime, but would be concerned with drinking more than 8-16oz saturday morning due to the sodium ingested during the
shitload. I think my body would be fine with it for pre-judging assuming it was early enough but I bet I'd be smooth & soft looking by late afternoon. JMO of what I expect from my body considering past experience.
KR

Good point kidrock. As I mentioned none of these folks used the standard shit-load. Most continued to limit sodium during their carb up. Some may have had a little sodium in there, but nothing like in a regular full-blown shitload would have.

I know that Skip advocates for some sodium as part of the shitload - but in these cases they had very little or none and still atttained the contest conditioning that they were looking for. I would have to say that the extra water may do some of the same things that sodium in a shit load might do as far as helping to push carbs/glycogen back into the muscles and so by keeping water in a person may not need the sodium in their carb up and in fact should possibly avoid it which is the concern that you express.

 

[usman]

Wow what a great response homonunculus great explanation. Ive been doing research on this as im mainly im interested in trying to keep blood volume high whilst maintaining low subq. Heres some info ive found on the net from varoius sources.

About 60% of the body weight is water. Body water can be divided into two compartments, intracellular and extracellular. The extracellular compartment is further subdivided into two further compartments, interstitial fluid and plasma
Total body water for a 70kg adult = 40 litres. Intracellular compartment = 25 litres Extracellular compartment = 15 litres = 12 litres interstitial fluid and 3 litres plasma

Also info from a university site lecture notes on salt and volume loading. Basically body fluids are about 300 mOsmarility. So by ingesting salt without water you are concentraing plasma volume higher than rest of body compartments with sodium. This causes an immediate response of moving water from the interstitial fluid to plasma, this later then leads to the interstitial fliud (extracellular fliud) more concentrated and water drives from inside the cells into the extrac fliud causing spill over. Ineterestingly it is stated that the first effect the one we want of fliud moving from extracell fluid to plasma takes about 10-30 minutes, the second effect that would cause a spill occurs over a number of hours.
Next concerning glycerol this info was extracted from the same place. Normally glycerol is situated outside the cell but the cell is permeable to glycerol. So when glycerol level rises glycerol will enter the cell, but when that happens, there will now be more solute inside the cell than outside, and water will enter the cell. At the same time, some K+ and Cl- may move out of the cell, following their concentration gradient. However as more and more glycerol enters the cell it adds more and more solute to the interior of the cell, drawing in more and more water, causing the cell to swell. However when talking about this in the lecture notes it was refering to its effects on red blood cells, thus leading me to question the usefulness of this substance and whether the same could be applied to muscle cells. Also would the loss of potassium be bad. I dont know with this one?
Thirdly discussed was protiens specifically albumin, plasma proteins like serum albumen are stated important in regulating plasma volume and supply osmotic activity to counteract the hydrostatic pressure in capillaries, but they make up a relatively small fraction of the total solute in plasma. Albumin is stated to play such an important role in controlling the movement of fluid out of capillaries because, unlike most of the other solutes in the plasma, they cannot move out of the capillaries. Thus albumin would not move out of the capilliries into extracell space causing sill over thus helping retaining water in the plasma compartment and out of the extracell compartment.
Finally what was discussed was glucose, it stated that the infusion of glucose solution might increase the intracellular volume depending on how the cells handled the glucose. As glucose is transported even against the concentration gradient it will obvoiusly increase the intracellular volume if stored as glycogen, by drawing water with it. However gucose can also situate outside of the cells and as you have stated can attract with it water into the extracellular compartment.
In discussing on the topic of tapering water another university lect notes also decribes in detail about fluid homeostasis. Basically it states that one hormone which can counter some of the effects of aldosterone is ATRIOPEPTIN or ATRIAL NATRIURETIC FACTOR, which is stated a newly discovered peptide hormone that is intimately involved in the regulation of fluid homeostasis. Basal level of atriopeptin exist in the circulation, however plasma levels increase when the atria are stretched by volume expansion (as induced by high salt diet, atreal tachycardia, water immersion). Atriopeptin produces a variety of effects that induce loss of sodium and water from the body. So by keeping water intake high when cutiing sodium you would help in throwing off aldosterone rise and stopping extracell fluid retention because this excess fliud intake would help stretch the atria and produce more atriopeptin.

 

[VA MadDog]

Good details usman

I have seen Homonunculus post similar explanations on other boards. Most of your post is right on.

Your comments support two thoughts - One is that if you would do a high sodium shitload, water intake on Saturday may still need to be limited. Conversely, if you carb load without sodium, extra water intake would not bind with the sodium to move it from intra to extra cellular as the extra sodium would not be there. The study gives a estimate of a few hours for the spill over to occur after the additional sodium intake. Actual experiences of BBers seem to indicate that this is really more like 24-36 hours or more.

The sodium in Skips carbo force concoction just before getting on stage supports your explanation of moving more fluid into plasma in the 10-30 minute window, and thus increasing vascularity.

If I remember the other post correctly it is the bodys production of extra Atriopeptin from a higher than normal level of water intake leading up to a contest that in effect causes the body to go into a state of diuresis (lets get rid of extra water). Whether you drop water or just keep water higher than needed I would think that this natural diuresis would continue for 24-48 hours after stopping water intake or after returning to a more normal level of intake. This is the reason why you do not want to taper or stop water before late on Friday. You want this 24-48 hour time frame to cover all of Saturday (contest day)

Did I remember and interpret this corrctly R?

BTW - Did you do your next contest yet usman or is that still coming up?

 

[homonunculus]

Now we're cookin' guys!!!

Usman, as far as potassium loss from the muscle cell, this could be bad. Losing the potsassium means of loss of positive charge from inside the cell. Do this and the membrane potentially increases (this goes for nerve and muscle cells) and you are closer to the threshold for depolarization. Get to close and you get spontaneous muscle contractions - spasms and cramps. This is why I take in potassium all day during show day.

As far as the ANF, itrs been in A & P books for 10 years or more, so its not too new. I guess I'll let you guys in on a little secret of mine. I manipulate this hormone precontest. I stretch my atria by facilitating venous return to the heart by elevating my legs when I sleep and during the day of the show. I put the yellow pages under the food of the bed an drop water like crazy. I keep my legs up as much as possible on show day. I even do it off season when / if I'm holding water. YOu don't have to sit in a pool (or go in outer space - this is one reason why astronauts have problems when they land - ANF is facilitated blood volume loss and then they are hypovolemic and dizzy when they've nor njormal gravity), just keep the legs higher than the head!

VA - you're with me, man. There are mechanisms of water loss that act very quickly (e.g., ADH - it has a half life of 15 minutes or so), so you can drop a shitload of water in just a few hours. Also , if you've been diluting your sodium levels by drinking lots of water w/ little sodium, then the hormones of water retention are minimal. (BTW, the kidneys can handle about 1 liter / hour.) Once you're dry, the hypernatremia will eventually catch up to you and your endocrin system will cause you to retain any water that you drink and actually end up making you hold water. (I would imagine that you could stay "dry" for days if you didn't drink any water, but you would feel like shit.) The hormonal "play" in the homeostatic system is really evident when guys pack on 20lb iin a coupl days after a show. Make that salty food and the signal ot hold more water persist and you end up with pitting edema and looking really sloppy 1 week after a show.

-Randy

 

[VA MadDog]

Funny thought

I can picture you walking around on your hands with your feet in the air, hanging from a chin-up bar with those reverse gravity boot dohickies. - lol But you would be one dry upside down MF!

I've heard of elevating the legs to help bring out more detail and cuts in the legs but I had not heard your theory before. Is it one in the same, i.e. it will make your legs more detailed and dry you out and improve vascularity?

Are you saying that just by emphasizing leg elevation the body mechnism to increase this hormone is triggered or are you doing something else to manipulate it?

Do you have like a constant headache or is this one of the teenage ninja turtle secrets that help you master the universe?

Very interesting!

 

[Bently]

I also spend as much of the day of the show with legs elevated as possible. I've noticed it definietly does help with the cuts in the legs and when I stand back up the vascularity actually pops out while I watch!
Other than that, I think you guys are using WAY too many big words today! LOL


KR

 

[homonunculus]

VA and KR,

This is a ninja secret - not to be passed along to anyone. LOL. I have never heard of anyone else doing this, but I am sure I will soon. I fifured it out reading the sci. lit. where studies were trying to simulate spaceflight, in particular the lack of gravity on the cardiovasscular system. Not many BB'ers interested in that I would imagine... LOL

SO, by not standing and keeping your feet up during the day, you reduce the orthostatic (gravitational) pressure in the vessels in the legs and keep the plasma from being pushed into the insterstitial space. Legs stay dry. KR, I can see my collapsed veins when I am lying like this during the day. Stand up and they fill like balloons!

By sleeping with a head-down tilt (this is what its called in the studies), blood flow back to the heart is increased. This venous return goes to the right atrium first, where stretch receptor detect the excess filling and release ANF. ANF acts on the kidneys to get reduce blood volume so that venous return is less. The only manipulation of the hormone I do is influence its release by body positioning.

I've lost almost 15 lb overnight by dropping water and sleeping like this. 8^) Nothing like waking up a FREAK!

-Randy

 

[usman]

I'm competing in two weeks on the 22 November on saturday. V.A. mad dog your right about the spill over taking 24-36hrs i think i just read the ting wrong as it stated it occured over many hours but didnt state how many.
Ive found some more info on insulin confirming what we already know, insulin in studies has shown to increase capillary recruitment in human skin in a dose dependent fashion occuirng within 30-60mins of insulin infusion. Also systemic physiological high insulin levels have shown to increase in muscle blood flow,
also an increase in total skin microcirculatory
blood flow, and augments nitric oxide–mediated vasodilatation
in skin microcirculation. So this supports eating large amounts of simple insulin promoting carbs proir to going out on stage yummy!

So it seems that a shit load can be theoretically supported from everything weve discussed. However shit loads such as those done by skip, he has done this the night or morning before the show, and never bloated. The reason why i think this is because when studies talk about the feedback of adding sodium to your body they arent taking into account of the hormonal manipulations we play on our selves before doing this. So if a shitload was done many hours before prejugde it could be argued that the sodium taken in would be excreted out through urination dragging with it extracell fliud by attracting it into plasma volume, and wouldnt be retained because of water manipulation done during the week and use of aids such as aldactone. Also it could be said because the extracell compartmant would be really low in sodium ions any way it may increase the time span for a spill over to occur because it would take longer to replenish sodium levels within the extracell compartment.
Anyway moving on i think if a person was doing a traditional carb up, a shit load would be more risky, i know skips tried this succesfully but experiance and knowing your body really well would be a crucial factors. A shitload may be safer if used as the sole carbup. Or for novices such as me maybe more safer to consume on sodium rich and sugary foods closer to prejudging, that way the worst thing that could happen is that either it doesnt work or you peak after the show, and wouldnt have to worry about spill over.

Lastly i would like to hear opinions on cal intake when carbing up. So far i am more inclined to think that especially the first day of carb up eating more calories than your caloric need would enhance glycogen storage. The reason why i say this that those extra cals eaten above expenditure would most likely be stored as glycogen because of the advantages of a depleted state. So i would like to hear on how many cals you guys typically consume when carbing up, do guys consume on large cals during carb up or maintenance?. BTW for my last show two weeks ago for the first day i consumed about 1000cals from my cal intake when dieting and 560g carbs , the second day i eat about 700 cals above and consumed 450g carbs, and the third day i was pleased with my muscle fullness so i just eat slightly under how many cals i consume when dieting about 2500 and 220g carbs.

The very last point (sorry for giong on) is about carbs causing you to spill over. Although i didnt agree with this before because i couldnt find any logical explanation. However from reading aritcles by homonunculus and other info has changed my opinion. It makes sense that glucose molecules can sit in the extracell sapce and attract fliud. Also bodybuilders often say that posing helps get rid of fliud out of the muscles. Theoretically this could be explained by contracting and squeezing a muscle would reduce carb spill over, as the concentric part of mucle contraction has been shown to cause insulin independant glucose uptake. So by posing it could be argued that your helping muscles suck up glucose out side the extracell compartment and stopping carb spill over. In addition to this would a agent such a ALA or RLA help. From personal experience I know that ALA works really well in lowering blood glucose from experiments using my mothers glucose testing kit and meals eaten with and without. In reality I think ALA is useless to bodybuilders on most occasions and don’t agree that it would help keep you leaner when bulking, also using post workout or during the carb up I think would negatively effect glycogen synthase activity by lowering the amount of insulin you produce per carbs eaten and not getting the benefits of insulins actions on glycogen storage, and negatively effect glycogen replenishment. But do you think it could be beneficial when used right at the end of a carb up, so by taking ala right at the end of the carb up maybe last carb up meal, or taken with last meal of no carb would help push any glucose in extracell space into muscle cells, and this would be more efficient combined with intense posing. What do you guys think of this or do you think it would be useless, any thoughts this and on all the info and questions ive posted here would be appreciated. BTW Thanks for the input on a great post and helping me learn all this info!!

 

[zilla]

my rule of thumb on shitloading has been:
calories per meal = 6xlbs. of BW every 2-2.5 hours

EXAMPLE: someone like Skip just coming in below LHW limit--> 195----> he would have maybe 4-5 meals prior to pre-j with approx 1170cals per meal.

I, personally, have exceeded this number and not seen "spill-over". Sodium normal for the shitfood eaten (pancakes- sausage) -- extra sodium added only 10-15 minutes prior to hitting stage (1 tablespoon with fruit juice).

zilla

 

[usman]

Thanks zillafor the input, any more input on the questions ive raised. Info would be appreciated.

 

[zilla]

One of the "controversies" I see discussed in this thread is SODIUM. Sodium is your friend the last 24 hours. Some speak of "spillover" DUE TO infusion if sodium, but think these points thru:

1. Sodium does indeed cause water retention.... but it takes HOW MUCH WATER to make this visible on a conditioned athlete?

2. Sodium does indeed cause water retention.... but HOW LONG does it take (in combination with HOW MUCH WATER) before it's visible?

3. When sodium is added, WHAT is the heirarchy of "action"?

MY THOUGHTS:
1. more water than you should drink....... LOL.
2. approaching 24 hours---- that's why shitloading is a 8-16 hour process (you didn't think I MADE UP this timeline did you?)
3. sodium FIRST scavenges water into depleted muscle, and then later---> spillover. KEY: use sodium to draw water into muscle which dramatically fills out the athlete while [restricting enough water/minimizing timeline of loading] to hit peak.

zilla

 

[Bently]

Zilla, if I remember correctly you were 1 of the original promoters of the shitload concept? I remember reading some of your old articles or posts last year while I was doing searches for info on a bunch of boards. Between your info and Skip's I was able to really pull it together when I did the shitloading!
Great to have your presence here with us now!
KR

 

[zilla]

Zilla, if I remember correctly you were 1 of the original promoters of the shitload concept? I remember reading some of your old articles or posts last year while I was doing searches for info on a bunch of boards. Between your info and Skip's I was able to really pull it together when I did the shitloading!
Great to have your presence here with us now!
KR

yes---
I coined the phrase and the concept about 4 years ago.

Skip is a great friend and VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE about contest prep in-&-outs. He has refined the original concept, and basically CARRIED THE TORCH for shitloading..... and his client list of SUCCESSFUL ATHLETES just shows how good his services really are......

zilla

 

[Skip]

Zilla, if I remember correctly you were 1 of the original promoters of the shitload concept?

No, he is THE original shitloader - no question.

Zilla - I am glad to see you here, bro. It would be great if you added us to your 'favorites' list. I know you have a ton of boards that you frequent but we would love to have you around more. Alot of good guys here and your knowlege would be well received (unlike bolex these days hehe - dicks).

ALL HAIL ZILLA!!

Skip

 

[zilla]

Thanks Skip----
always good to see you around.....

I only really post on ********* and a little on varix (occasionally on bolex or promuscle). You cats have a great and forward-thinking board, and with this warm welcome--> I plan to stick around.

If there's anyway I can help you Skip..... the door's always open.

As my post count says---> I am just another newbie ~LOL.
zilla

 

[Skip]

As my post count says---> I am just another newbie ~LOL.
zilla

Newbie my ass.

I have a couple things that I have wanted to run by you but, you know, I keep saying I will do tomorrow. hehe

I will hit you with email later tonight. I have the addy with an x in it. If this isn't correct, hit me with one so I can return it.

Thanks zilla. Love the avatar.

Skip

 

[homonunculus]

Glad to see ya hear, Zilla!!!

-Randy