When Cutting

[LA]

Ok 2 part question simular to the bulking question I just posted.

Part 1

When cutting- but not below 7%, what is the minimum fat to muscle loss that you would except? 2 lbs of fat for every lb of muscle?

Part 2

When cutting for a contest, what is the minimum fat to muscle loss that you would except? 1-1?

Thanks- LA

 

[WeirdAl]

1: infinity (no muscle loss)
2: 2-1 (fat-muscle)

 

[LA]

1: infinity (no muscle loss)
2: 2-1 (fat-muscle)

Al, are you saying you can't/won't tollerate muscle loss of any kind when cutting down to 7%?

 

[WeirdAl]

yep, that's what I'm saying. I lost about 4 lbs when cutting naturally from 15-12%, but from 12-6.5%, I gained about 2 lbs of muscle back (lean mass increased by 2 lbs).

 

[midwtchamp]

same as al, but I can venture to say 3-1 on me b/c I can eat higher number of cals and still loose wt.

 

[LA]

Bump

 

[jaywooly]

yep, that's what I'm saying. I lost about 4 lbs when cutting naturally from 15-12%, but from 12-6.5%, I gained about 2 lbs of muscle back (lean mass increased by 2 lbs).

Do you think/expect it's always going to work like that?

 

[PRAETORIAN]

re: cutting

Well i may be an anomaly but i think not..Skip i think can vouch for me on this as well..
When cutting..and i wont usually cut unless i plan on competing..mostly because i stay relatively lean year round (no higher than 8-9%) and because i hate to diet! Ok..so whenever cutting for previous shows my lean body mass has always increased up to the contest. Now i cannot attest as to specifically why this happens but i have a few ideas. First off...i always try to stay clean(natural) for as long as possible prior to comp dieting. Second, when i start dieting i go 16 weeks the first 4 will be eating plenty of clean food..just limiting carbs slightly. The next 12 will be very strict with a carb up every week. I feel my body responds to a strict eating regimen and the higher protein with AAS and tends to slingshot ahead what woudl normally be a plateau. Example, this past year started at 222 lbs 9%...16 weeks later 232 6%. Dont get me wrong i am not complaining at all..i just find it very intriguing how some people lose muscle. My diet consists of 1.5-2 grams pro/lb plus .5-.75 grams EFA/lb plus 100 grams carbs /day or less. (no starches until carb up day)
Peace,
P

 

[LA]

Re: re: cutting

Well i may be an anomaly but i think not..Skip i think can vouch for me on this as well..
When cutting..and i wont usually cut unless i plan on competing..mostly because i stay relatively lean year round (no higher than 8-9%) and because i hate to diet! Ok..so whenever cutting for previous shows my lean body mass has always increased up to the contest. Now i cannot attest as to specifically why this happens but i have a few ideas. First off...i always try to stay clean(natural) for as long as possible prior to comp dieting. Second, when i start dieting i go 16 weeks the first 4 will be eating plenty of clean food..just limiting carbs slightly. The next 12 will be very strict with a carb up every week. I feel my body responds to a strict eating regimen and the higher protein with AAS and tends to slingshot ahead what woudl normally be a plateau. Example, this past year started at 222 lbs 9%...16 weeks later 232 6%. Dont get me wrong i am not complaining at all..i just find it very intriguing how some people lose muscle. My diet consists of 1.5-2 grams pro/lb plus .5-.75 grams EFA/lb plus 100 grams carbs /day or less. (no starches until carb up day)
Peace,
P

PRAETORIAN, this is cool! Any chance that you could provide more details?

 

[WeirdAl]

I think dpsquat's approach was why I could cut so effectively without losing muscle mass. And I think if I continue to follow that approach, and especially if I don't start out so high of bf, with such short time, I can actually increase my lbm while cutting.

 

[PRAETORIAN]

Re: Re: re: cutting

PRAETORIAN, this is cool! Any chance that you could provide more details?

Hey bro, I will try!
My diet as i said usually consists of higher protein, EFA's and low carb until sat or sunday when i carb up...usually i eat whatever i feel like so it is more akin to Skip's shitloading than a regular carb up...But i think the main factor is getting to a point endocrine wise where i am totally stable and clean for at least 3 months prior to precontest diet and cycle. When natural i will lower my total calorie intake for obvious reasons and thus lower protein as well. I will also maintain a good training schedule but mostly moderate weights and 4-5 days a week. Nothing too crazy or heavy more like a post cycle workout regimen. I guess what i try to do is put my body into a very relaxed non stressed mode...not trying to gain ..just maintain and also keep my mind fresh so i keep workouts short 1 hour max and 20-30 min light cardio. This also has a great resting effect on the adrenal system which can get taxed extremely high during precontest time.
So when i am ready to diet my calories actually go up, along with AAS, ECA, T3 etc. Now the usual route BB's take precontest is coming off a good bulker at the highest bodyweight they start dieting and go nowhere but down. This is tough physically as well as mentally...feeling smaller, weaker etc. I have actually hit my personal best deadlift while precontest dieting..and my strentth always increases as well during precontest. I know if this is happening then i am either maintaining muscle or building it not losing it.

Sample cycle precontest:

weeks 1-6 Ad50 50mg/day
weeks 1-12 test prop 100mg/eod
weeks 1-16 tren 150mg/eod
weeks 11-16 winny 50mg/day or halo 20mg/day preferred
weeks 1-16 nolvadex 20 mg/day
weeks 7-16 T3 75 mcg/day
weeks 1-16 ECA 3 times /day

What others do:
1. reduce calories
2. start diet at highest weight
3. start dieting at strongest point
4. start AAS while naturally suppressed
5. reduce weight on exercises
6. increase cardio too much

What I do:
1. increase calories(first 6 weeks)
2. start diet at lowest point
3.start diet at weakest point
4.start aas while clean. stable and fresh
5. increase weights on exercises
6. keep cardio level

The whole thing works similar to a slingshot effect. Your body will remember where you were at a higher bodyweight and strength...and will get back to that as you go. It is difficult to do this as it takes a strong will to go natural and stabalize weight reducing calories etc, but it does work wonders for me.
I hope this helps!
Peace,
P

 

[PRAETORIAN]

good article

A good read that supports my theory somewhat.

A Tip for Those Who Use Cardio to Get Ready for a Body-Transformation, Bodybuilding, or Fitness Competition
By Bryan Haycock MS


Anybody who has ever competed in a bodybuilding contest knows what it is like to spend hours on a treadmill. Not only that, but try spending those hours while nearly starving yourself half to death. It isn’t "fun", but to many it is very rewarding. So much so that they do it year after year, always trying to better their condition compared to the year before. I thought I would share with those Think Muscle readers interested in getting ready for a body-transformation, bodybuilding or fitness competition, a tip that will help them with this preparation.

Two things generally are required to get lean enough to compete in bodybuilding or fitness. One, you must cut your calories, and two, you must increase your cardio. Now there are some who might argue that you don’t have to do both but I have seldom seen someone really ripped who doesn’t use both.

The biggest mistake I see with both novice and experienced competitors is the introduction of both high volume cardio and very low calories at the same time. In essence, they go from off season mass building to marathon running semi-starvation virtually overnight. This creates a tremendous burden on the system. This burden ultimately leads to significant losses of both size and strength.

Understand that endurance training creates a catabolic environment only when calories are insufficient. When sufficient calories and protein are consumed, the body responds in an anabolic manner to moderate endurance training. This anabolism serves to enhance the body’s ability to perform such exercise in the future. If a person were to go from no exercise, to a lot of exercise all at once, there is a 12-14 day period of adaptation during which nitrogen balance is negative. With sufficient protein, this negative nitrogen balance does not necessarily lead to a net loss of muscle protein.

When you go on a diet, there is an obligatory loss of lean as well as fat tissue (under normal conditions). Increasing protein intake will help to reduce the amount of muscle loss, but it will not prevent it.

Combining both high volume endurance exercise with caloric restriction leads to rapids decreases in bodyweight, but it also leads to rapid losses of muscle tissue and often puts undue stress on the immune system.

The solution? You’ll have to find that out for yourself…just kidding. The solution is to begin your cardio before you begin your diet. In fact, to optimize the amount of food you can eat and still lose fat you must ramp up your cardio and increase your caloric intake at the same time to prevent any drop in bodyweight for the first two weeks as least. This way you will be eating a lot of food just to maintain bodyweight. This makes the body much more sensitive to reductions in calories/carbs.

If you’ve left yourself plenty of time to get ready for this future photo shoot or event, take about 4-6 weeks to slowly increase you calories until your bodyweight stabilizes at a higher weight. This generally happens after a 5-8 pound gain. You may feel fat doing this but it is all preparatory to "better dieting". So once your bodyweight has stabilized at a higher point, slowly introduce your cardio. Be careful not to let your bodyweight drop during this 2-4 week period. Try to consume lots of carbs and lean protein to maintain weight. Guys can get away with a slight increase in fat intake as well. Remember, we are not trying to get fat, only to maintain bodyweight and muscle while introducing cardio into our training.

Once you’re doing as much cardio as you are ever going to do during your diet, slowly begin to reduce the amount of carbohydrates in the diet. If you’ve done it right, you will be consuming tons of carbs before you even begin to diet. All of this allows you to play with your carb intake at a much higher level than you could if you had cut them right at the beginning. I have also seen that people will lose fat consuming many more carbs than usual when taking this approach.

Overall, shoot for about a pound of weight loss per week. This may seem slow, but if you’ve followed these instructions, the diet is much easier to stick to because you are consuming many more calories during the diet.

About the Author

Bryan Haycock M.Sc. is an exercise physiologist and NPC judge. Bryan has been bodybuilding for over 20 years and holds certifications with the NSCA, ACE, and is a member of the American College of Sports Medicine. Bryan is currently the Editor in Chief of ThinkMuscle.com and is the founder and CEO of LifeStyleMgmt.com. Bryan is a highly sought after authority on the physiology of muscle growth and fat loss. Bryan also specializes in the management of type-II diabetes through diet and exercise.

Peace,
P
__________________

 

[4play]

Sounds intresting PRAETORIAN, I liked your post's and might give that a try. How do you figure you calories, do you use the bodyweight X ? = bulk, cut, maintain. How do you figure your calories, and what kind of split do you use. 40,40,20 or 50,30,20 or 60,20,20 pro.,carb,fat.

 

[LA]

Thanks for getting back to me PRAETORIAN!

 

[PRAETORIAN]

Thanks for getting back to me PRAETORIAN!

No prob bro!
Asper 4play's question...my calories are adjusted to bodyweight times 15 then reduced or increased according to what my goals are..cutting or bulking. I wil always start with protein and keep it at 1.5-2 grams per lb, then add fats .5-.75 g/lb and if dieting just add in carbd pre and post workout keeping to 100 g or less.
Peace,
P

 

[IM^]

Hey PRAETORIAN I have been trying to PM you for two days and your box is still full and it won't let me...

 

[4play]

Hey PRAETORIAN, Thankz for answering my question. I'm going to try what you said.

 

[PRAETORIAN]

Hey PRAETORIAN I have been trying to PM you for two days and your box is still full and it won't let me...

Sorry bro..try again i just cleaned it!'
Peace,
P

 

[LA]

Hey PRAETORIAN, Thankz for answering my question. I'm going to try what you said.

Not to be nosey but is it worth sharing with the rest of the class?