Jpotch chime in on this *DECA

[Metal85]

I read somewhere that ibuprofen, because of its abilities to stop or reduce inflamation, reduces the ability to grow muscle because you need inflamation as part of the breakdown process.
***If this is true, I connect my question to this***

~Deca is used in the hospital to reduce swelling and inflamation.

connecting the dots-
Could one assume that taking deca would prevent the natural process of the breakdown of muscle, thus limiting the amount of muscle gain that an individual could achieve on a given cycle?

By this question I dont mean size put on by water, but actual real muscle volume.

 

[Jpotch]

The inflammatory response of your body (which is one part of the healing response) plays a key role in muscle growth. Infiltration of the muscle by macrophages is a direct result of the inflammatory response we cause during our intense workouts. Growth factors within the muscle cells are stimulated by these macrophages thus linking the inflammatory response and muscle growth. IGF 1 is also stimulated by inflammatory cells within our muscles.

so...when we take NSAIDS and COX 2 inhibitors such as ibuprofen, aleve, celebrex etc it becomes a double edged sword for those who are looking to build muscle. it relieves the discomfort associated with inflammation but we need that healing response to gain new muscle. I cant think of the name of the study however i remember seeing somewhere that NSAIDS decrease muslce hypertrophy by nearly 45%. I believe there is a rat study done with similar results. Also NSAIDS have been shown to decrease the stem cells in our muscles and increases myostatin which curbs muscle growth....

as far as deca goes...it does have ananti inflammatory response. however in my short career i have yet to see it used for that reason primarily. deca's ability to improve collegen synthesis, the fact that its an androgen (positive effects of corticosteroids), and that its a progestin is what gives it the anti inflammatory capabilities.
Some reports suggest that macrophages and lymphocytes in the presense of progesterone exhibit an anti inflammatory response in the body thus causing deca to have the capability to decrease the bodys healing response even further.

so in my opinion i would say deca does have the ability to inhibit true muscle growth. obviously individuals still put on muscle with deca or none of us would use it.

What i've learned from considering these factors as i write this is that if i were to do a cycle with deca i'd limit the use of NSAIDS and COX 2 inhibitors and probably add IGF to the cycle..

 

[big in vegas]

You've got me, it's a good question though. It's times like this that it'd be nice to have a doctor around

 

[Metal85]

The inflammatory response of your body (which is one part of the healing response) plays a key role in muscle growth. Infiltration of the muscle by macrophages is a direct result of the inflammatory response we cause during our intense workouts. Growth factors within the muscle cells are stimulated by these macrophages thus linking the inflammatory response and muscle growth. IGF 1 is also stimulated by inflammatory cells within our muscles.

so...when we take NSAIDS and COX 2 inhibitors such as ibuprofen, aleve, celebrex etc it becomes a double edged sword for those who are looking to build muscle. it relieves the discomfort associated with inflammation but we need that healing response to gain new muscle. I cant think of the name of the study however i remember seeing somewhere that NSAIDS decrease muslce hypertrophy by nearly 45%. I believe there is a rat study done with similar results. Also NSAIDS have been shown to decrease the stem cells in our muscles and increases myostatin which curbs muscle growth....

as far as deca goes...it does have ananti inflammatory response. however in my short career i have yet to see it used for that reason primarily. deca's ability to improve collegen synthesis, the fact that its an androgen (positive effects of corticosteroids), and that its a progestin is what gives it the anti inflammatory capabilities.
Some reports suggest that macrophages and lymphocytes in the presense of progesterone exhibit an anti inflammatory response in the body thus causing deca to have the capability to decrease the bodys healing response even further.

so in my opinion i would say deca does have the ability to inhibit true muscle growth. obviously individuals still put on muscle with deca or none of us would use it.

What i've learned from considering these factors as i write this is that if i were to do a cycle with deca i'd limit the use of NSAIDS and COX 2 inhibitors and probably add IGF to the cycle..

they will use it for head injuries to reduce brain swelling

 

[Metal85]

You've got me, it's a good question though. It's times like this that it'd be nice to have a doctor around

I usually think of this stuff as I try to fall asleep and than never remember what it was I was going to ask on here the next day

 

[Jpotch]

they will use it for head injuries to reduce brain swelling

Thats interesting. I guess u learn something new every day. Ive seen corticosteroids used for brain swelling.

The only thing if seen Deca used for in the clinical setting is in the treatment of sickle cell anemia

 

[Rep]

Worked in a trauma center for 4 years. Never seen it used. Generally give 3% sodium for brain swelling.
Must be your institution. I'll research this and see if we could use it

 

[The Dude]

There is lab science in a cell culture and then there is real world. Nothing puts quality tissue on me like Deca. I'm prescribed it as part of my HRT (for joint issues). I also take NSAIDS now where as I used to avoid them like the plaque. I'm growing at a better rate now than ever. Of course I'm not in a clinical setting and not participating in a double blind placebo controlled test. I know NOTHING I'm taking is inhibiting muscle growth to any noticable degree at all. I remember back in the day Dan Duchain saying that Benzo's. Could play a large part in muscle growth.

 

[Jpotch]

I think its safe to say the jury is still out on NSAIDS...I just found this article that happens to contradict the ones i discussed earlier (cant find those studies online yet). This one concludes that the NSAIDS may have a slight inhibiting factor but not proven to make a difference...
The other study was similar and used and mri to measure muscle growth...
What i can say for sure is that the process of muscle growth is yet to be fully understood ...




Exercise and NSAIDs: Effect on Muscle Protein Synthesis in Patients with Knee Osteoarthritis
PETERSEN, SUSANNE GERMANN; MILLER, BEN F.; HANSEN, METTE; KJAER, MICHAEL; HOLM, LARS

Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise . 43(3):425-431, March 2011.
doi: 10.1249/MSS.0b013e3181f27375

Abstract

Purpose: The purpose of this study was to determine muscle and tendon protein fractional synthesis rates (FSR) at rest and after a one-legged kicking exercise in patients with knee osteoarthritis (OA) receiving either placebo or nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs).

Methods: Twenty patients with knee OA (50-70 yr) were enrolled. For each of the 3 days before the exercise intervention, 9 patients were administered NSAIDs (1200 mg), and 11 patients were administered placebo in a double-blinded manner. Each patient performed 60 min of one-legged kicking at 55% of workload maximum while the contralateral leg remained rested. Twenty-four hours after exercise, we determined circulating concentrations of inflammatory parameters and measured FSR of myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein fractions of vastus lateralis muscle and patellar tendon collagen protein by the direct incorporation method using a flooding dose of 13C/12C-proline.

Results: Circulating levels of prostaglandin F2α were lower in the NSAID group compared with the placebo group (P < 0.05). There was an overall significant effect of exercise on FSR in muscle myofibrillar (P = 0.003) and sarcoplasmic protein (P = 0.026) but not in tendon collagen protein (P = 0.52). No overall significant effect of the drug was seen on either of the tissue protein fractions (P > 0.05) or on the interaction between the drug and exercise on FSR in tendon collagen (P = 0.21), muscle myofibrillar (P = 0.68), or sarcoplasmic protein, FSR (P = 0.16).

Conclusion: In elderly patients with knee OA, an acute bout of moderate exercise significantly increases FSR of muscle myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein, but not tendon collagen, 24 h after exercise. NSAID administration in patients with knee OA reduced the level of circulating prostaglandin F2α but did not diminish the exercise-induced response of muscle contractile protein FSR. However, we cannot exclude that a minor inhibition of muscle sarcoplasmic proteins may have been present with NSAID treatment. This study suggests that muscle hypertrophy after long-term training is not influenced by NSAIDs.

 

[Metal85]

yeah decadron for brain swelling and spinal swelling on the neuro floor is pretty common at one of our hospitals

 

[Jpotch]

Decadron for after total knees too

 

[big in vegas]

Kinda off subject, but don't NSAIDS especially ibuprofen in a large quantity give you kidney stones?

 

[Zeus]

There is lab science in a cell culture and then there is real world. Nothing puts quality tissue on me like Deca. I'm prescribed it as part of my HRT (for joint issues). I also take NSAIDS now where as I used to avoid them like the plaque. I'm growing at a better rate now than ever. Of course I'm not in a clinical setting and not participating in a double blind placebo controlled test. I know NOTHING I'm taking is inhibiting muscle growth to any noticable degree at all. I remember back in the day Dan Duchain saying that Benzo's. Could play a large part in muscle growth.

I totaly agree with the dude on this one. Between my job and lifting, I have to take naproxin to keep all the inflamation down. Everyones body reacts diff to diff things. Just cause a study says it inhibits muscle growth, that doesn't mean it does this for everyone. I am very allergic to ibuprofin, so 2 to 3 persription naproxins is what I have to take. Yes, they are closely related but not enough to fckn kill me. Damn near everyone I know who trains, take ssomething for pain and inflamation. We have no probs putting on muscle.....

 

[Jpotch]

Kinda off subject, but don't NSAIDS especially ibuprofen in a large quantity give you kidney stones?

Regular nsaid users have about a 1% risk of kidney disorders and decreasing kidney function scores.
Fairly low risk. I think most problems from nsaids are liver and GI related.

 

[big in vegas]

Ah, I've just heard some people I know blame ibuprofen for kidney stones and didn't think they really could verify that's what it was, but wasn't sure