In my opinion dmz is totally different then havoc. I did small dose of each. Dmz I put on weight and strength went up - havoc I leaned out (lost the
weight from the dmz) but my calories were way lower with the havoc. My strength stayed pretty close to where it got with the dmz even though I went
down about 25 lbs. I used way small doses, one a day, figured low dose and longer on while not worrying about sides. I have nothing but time and am
happy with slow gains as long as I am making gains. My nipples started to hurt with the havoc even with low dose. NEVER had any gyno issues before.
I am waiting for MC's anti estrogen before starting up the havoc again. I enjoyed the size I got with the dmz but I am liking seeing my abbs even better. lol