Injured back question....

[The Dude]

I'm sure there are plenty here that have back issues. I never thought I did. Turns out that I do. Apparently there are ligaments in front and behind the spine attatched to the sacrum that hold the lower vertabra in place. Mine are trashed. My discs are bulging and the vertabra are moving inward and impinging the nerves. My lower back (like right above and in between my ass cheeks) has a dull muscle ache that sometimes gets bad and sends shooting pains into my legs and feet as well as numbness in the skin and tingling and sometimes they just fall asleep. I can deal with it at this point as its not a really big deal and doesn't hamper my training usually. The Dr said we can do pain pills and nerve blocks (no pain pills for me) for a while, but the only solution is to fuse them. Do I need to do this?? Can I just go on as I have been or am I flirting with disaster? I've never hurt my back so I don't know how or when this happened. Experiences? Advice?

 

[Jpotch]

Bro in my opinion its one of those things that never really gets any better on its own. You can reduce the frequency of your symptoms a bit by staying sedintary but overall it wont reverse whats happening.
Exercises that compress your spin (squats,shrugs ect) are going to make it worse and worse. I dont think theres any way around it.

To more accurately describe your risks and options i need to know what levels are bulging and need fused (is it all in the lumbar spine or involving the sacrum, or sacral illiac joint).

 

[big in vegas]

I've been having terrible pain in sciatic nerve. Today was actually pretty bad at work, it's right above my left cheek and is basically like a spasm. Once it contracts, the pain shoots down my leg and will buckle me and take my breath away. It doesn't happen when I'm in the gym, only at work for some reason. And I noticed that since I went and had my 1st professional massage it's gotten worse so I don't know if that aggitated it and it just needs to settle again or what

 

[The Dude]

To more accurately describe your risks and options i need to know what levels are bulging and need fused (is it all in the lumbar spine or involving the sacrum, or sacral illiac joint).

It involves the sacrum and the three vertebra above it. The ligament that holds them on both sides is destroyed and all of the involved disks are bulging outward and my vertebra are moving in impinging the nerves.
It seems to get a little worse each day for a few days then go away for a few days, but sometimes when it hits I can't do anything but lie down with my legs bent and elevates.
Originally they said mine was sciatica, but it continued to get worse hence the MRI.
Big I'd advise you to get an MRI as well. I go for my nerve study on Thurs to see how much damage there is. They said its probably going to be pretty bad as I can't feel the needle when they stick me in those areas. No feeling at all.

 

[big in vegas]

I've thought about going to get checked. My problem is that I hate going to docs and I hate even more asking for any kind of medicine because I just have the mentality that they only assume I'm there because I'm a drug addict and not in legitiment pain

 

[The Dude]

I've thought about going to get checked. My problem is that I hate going to docs and I hate even more asking for any kind of medicine because I just have the mentality that they only assume I'm there because I'm a drug addict and not in legitiment pain

It's funny you say that. It's been going on for so long that the Dr demanded the MRI before my last visit. I've been downplaying the pain to myself and those around me for a while, but it's gotten pretty bad.
After the results came back my Dr in a round about way told me that he could see I was down playing the pain. He said I could do an escalating pain pill thing with nerve blocks, but the situation wasn't going to improve.
I refused any pain pills as I've seen what they can do to people's lives.
I'm hoping I can work through it with adjustments, nerve blocks, and novacaine injections.
The only solution is surgery and I don't want that, but it's good to be educated about my condition though as I will train smarter.

 

[Jpotch]

It involves the sacrum and the three vertebra above it. The ligament that holds them on both sides is destroyed and all of the involved disks are bulging outward and my vertebra are moving in impinging the nerves.
It seems to get a little worse each day for a few days then go away for a few days, but sometimes when it hits I can't do anything but lie down with my legs bent and elevates.
Originally they said mine was sciatica, but it continued to get worse hence the MRI.
Big I'd advise you to get an MRI as well. I go for my nerve study on Thurs to see how much damage there is. They said its probably going to be pretty bad as I can't feel the needle when they stick me in those areas. No feeling at all.

The three above the sacrum are Lumbar-3 L-4 and L5. At each level, nerve roots exit both sides. These roots provide sensation and function to different parts of the body. The roots from L3 L4 and L5 mostly innervate the legs beggining at the mid thigh and into the foot (mostly the big toe and heel). Sacral 1 innervates the lateral side of the ankles and up the back of your legs.
The reason i asked you earlier whether you had trouble urinating is because S2 S3 issues can pretty much shut that area down.
So you can conduct your own test so see where you have numbness and tingling. Obviously complete numbness is a bad sign. It means that specific root is really compressed....
If your connective tissues are really as trashed as your doc makes them out to be you should be able to feel instability. A simple discectomy wouldn't really cure all of your symptoms. With the instability issues from your ligaments; stability can only be achieved with a fusion.
Im assuming the ligaments he is talking about is the Ligamentum Flavum. It gets its name bc of its color. Flavum means Yellow for yellow ligament. The reason its yellow is because its made of a different kind of collagen called elastin. Elastin really decreases with age especially in some people. Its most likely nothing you really did with one accident or anything like that, just part of the aging process for some people......

anyways, i feel like im rambling on and on but just trying to be informative haha
hope things work out for you bro

 

[georgeinaltus]

Man back pain is no joke, I feel for ya bro, Hope you get some medical help soon. Back pain will make a grown man cry. Its no joke.

 

[big in vegas]

Jpotch, not to hijack this thread, but are the lumbar vertebrae connected to the sciatic nerve at any point? I know that when I had my massage, she kept working on the sciatic and ever since then, I'll have spasms that shoot down my whole left leg (pain is in my lower back to the left) and will buckle my knees almost bringing me completely to the ground for a second

 

[The Dude]

The three above the sacrum are Lumbar-3 L-4 and L5. At each level, nerve roots exit both sides. These roots provide sensation and function to different parts of the body. The roots from L3 L4 and L5 mostly innervate the legs beggining at the mid thigh and into the foot (mostly the big toe and heel). Sacral 1 innervates the lateral side of the ankles and up the back of your legs.
The reason i asked you earlier whether you had trouble urinating is because S2 S3 issues can pretty much shut that area down.
So you can conduct your own test so see where you have numbness and tingling. Obviously complete numbness is a bad sign. It means that specific root is really compressed....
If your connective tissues are really as trashed as your doc makes them out to be you should be able to feel instability. A simple discectomy wouldn't really cure all of your symptoms. With the instability issues from your ligaments; stability can only be achieved with a fusion.
Im assuming the ligaments he is talking about is the Ligamentum Flavum. It gets its name bc of its color. Flavum means Yellow for yellow ligament. The reason its yellow is because its made of a different kind of collagen called elastin. Elastin really decreases with age especially in some people. Its most likely nothing you really did with one accident or anything like that, just part of the aging process for some people......

anyways, i feel like im rambling on and on but just trying to be informative haha
hope things work out for you bro

I really appreciate the insight and you're definately not rambling. I'm not as educated as you, but I do have a B.S. in Biomedical Science. You nailed the symptoms as far as numbness in the quads and hams as well as calves and feet. My legs quickly "fall asleep" or do this extremely painful pins and needles thing frequently and I'm not able to walk for a few minutes. It usually requires me hitting and digging my knuckles into my legs. It can be pretty bad. As far as stability I have no issues and never have. Im completely stable with 500lbs on my back doing squats or hitting 600+ on squats (of course I think those are going to be a thing of the past to be safe).
Being completely honest, how much of a set back / recovery / strength moving forward will I see if and when I do have them fused??
What are my risks with continuing with my current training and condition other than continuing or worsening pain??

 

[Jenn]

Great info from Jpotch! Dude I have no experience but I do hope that you feel better and that whatever action you decide to take will fix this problem for you!

 

[Jpotch]

I really appreciate the insight and you're definately not rambling. I'm not as educated as you, but I do have a B.S. in Biomedical Science. You nailed the symptoms as far as numbness in the quads and hams as well as calves and feet. My legs quickly "fall asleep" or do this extremely painful pins and needles thing frequently and I'm not able to walk for a few minutes. It usually requires me hitting and digging my knuckles into my legs. It can be pretty bad. As far as stability I have no issues and never have. Im completely stable with 500lbs on my back doing squats or hitting 600+ on squats (of course I think those are going to be a thing of the past to be safe).
Being completely honest, how much of a set back / recovery / strength moving forward will I see if and when I do have them fused??
What are my risks with continuing with my current training and condition other than continuing or worsening pain??

Ok completely honest and no sugar coating.....
This is life changing for you regardless of what you decide to do treatment wise. Obviously as we discussed it will get worse and worse. The risks of letting it go and doing nothing are serious. Permanent nerve root damage is possible or even likely if you continue heavy lifting ect....

As far as a fusion....patient satisfaction scores for those who have had a lumbar fusion are about as low as any elective procedure. We all know people who have had the procedure done and very few of them are ever 100% again.
Training wise i would expect you back in the gym with limited exercise at 6 months. Id guess there would be exercises that you would have to avoid. Likely you would figure out quickly which ones these are. You may not ever get back to using heavy weights. Personally if it were me id turn into a high rep low weight kind of guy.
After one year you will probably reach your peak as far as recovery. At that point it would be as good as it gets.
You will have to avoid exercises that strain the lower back. At your age the hardware in your spine has a decent chance of wearing out and you would have to go back for round two. How fast this happens depends a lot on your lifestyle.
Any surgeon will tell you a revision operation is much more demanding on the surgeon and on the patient.

 

[Jpotch]

Jpotch, not to hijack this thread, but are the lumbar vertebrae connected to the sciatic nerve at any point? I know that when I had my massage, she kept working on the sciatic and ever since then, I'll have spasms that shoot down my whole left leg (pain is in my lower back to the left) and will buckle my knees almost bringing me completely to the ground for a second

The origin of the sciatic nerve generates from L-4 through S-3. It supplies most of the skin sensations of the leg as well as muscles in the back of your thigh

 

[The Dude]

I appreciate the honesty. I guess I'll go through it and do my best to avoid any more damage. My nerve study is tomorrow morning.

 

[Jpotch]

best of luck man. hopefully things turn out ok